MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT and her merchandise

[Forty9er]

Hey 9er,

Didn't mean it to get off on rapture timing.

I really just wanted to counter the idea that if you believe in a pre-trib rapture it is assumed by many people that you believe that God won't allow Christians (especially in the US) to suffer. And I completely reject that idea. Even today there are Christians all over the world who are suffering tremendous persecution and we definitely haven't entered the Great Tribulation.

My intent was to draw attention to the fact no one agrees as to what Mystery Babylon is. If, as you say there may be a build up to that.......call it....event where God says to come out of her, and that build up is at work in the world today........taking a pre-trib/dispensational view point it doesn't apply since it will be in a different dispensation.

If that statement to "come out of her" applied to this dispensation, the Church Age, that statement would appear in the epistles.

That exact phrase doesn't appear in the epistles but if it applies to a general system which culminates in the end times then maybe there are similar references:

John 15:18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you.
John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Jas 4:4 You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

Again the meaning is to the unknown meaning of Mystery Babylon. We, whether one believes in different dispensations, or not, are living on this side of Rev. 6. (At least for those who don't believe Rev. has already happened) Once we cross the boundary of Rev. 6 it would appear that it no longer is a Mystery.

We that are alive today can look back through history covered in the Bible and see God's character, ways, means of doing things. For instance:

When ever God gave instructions, those instructions were very clear, very precise, and very simple.

Each shall bear fruit after it's own kind. Do not eat of this particular tree.

Thou shall not have no other God's before me. Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not lie, Thou shalt not covet, etc.....

Concerning His instructions on ....festivals, and ceremonies. Thou shalt take a lamb of one year old, without spot and blemish, and keep in your house for 7 days, and then on the 7th day thou shalt kill it and eat it. While standing, and in traveling clothes etc..... Then in memorial that shall on the 14th day of the 7th month do this and that etc...

In building the Temple, thou shalt build it this long and no longer, this wide and no wider, this high and no higher etc.....

In the NT: take the water pots (the 6 that were standing there) and fill them with water, once you do that take out a dipper full and take it the governor. Go here and ask for a donkey and bring it to me. Go here and in 3 days I will meet you there.

Even in the 7 letters in Rev. do this, or I will do this etc....

All of them are very clear, very precise, and very simple.

Now when it gets to this Mystery Babylon it gets vague?????????? The instruction is clear, very precise, and very simple, "come out of her my people". As to what we are to come out of is......what exactly?

Yes but the epistles are mostly practical instruction and spiritual guidance but Revelation is filled with figurative language. For example, what does a woman clothed with the sun mean?

And if that is not enough the angel goes on to explain the woman that had the inscription is actually a city, (Rev. 17: 1 "that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth".

What city exactly is that? New York, Washington DC, Brussels (where they actually have a statue of a woman riding a beast in front of the EU building) London, Berlin (who does sort of dictate to the rest of the EU, especially through it's finances and is where the Pergamum Museum is housed) Rome, a city on 7 hills, and at one time did tell kings what they could and could not do? And I might add, I don't live in any of them.

Then in Rev. 18 it states "fallen, fallen is Babylon". Not Mystery Babylon, just Babylon, are they the same city? And it is this city "the habitation of demons", that another voice says to "come out of her my people" which if Mystery Babylon and this Babylon are the same is directing the people of God to get out of this particular city. Which He has done before-note Sodom, and when you see this.... run to the hills.

I guess I just don't see that as specific, practical instructions for Christians living at that time but it is a more general instruction to be completely separate from and have no part in the evil system that is culminating in what is called Mystery Babylon.

[CaryC]

LOL well there you go. No one knows for sure.

And just as food for thought:

Yeah lots of figurative language in Rev. no doubt. "A woman rides the beast" is figurative for sure. However, when it is explained to John, as the same image was to Dan. and then explained, I would think the explanation was not figurative, even as it wasn't to Daniel, and is what we use in the accuracy of pre-telling history in the book of Daniel.

Just saying, and what is a mystery now will be known then.

[Nicho1]

Yes, I know this is terribly long but I've condensed as much as possible. Thanks for letting me share. (By the way, when the Scripture uses the term "my people," who is that? Is is Israel. THEY are His people.)

May I offer some additional thoughts to be considered?
First, from Scripture:
There is a harlot/whore. Rev 17:1, 15, 16; Rev. 19:2
Her name is “Mystery” (notice the comma), “Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots, and Abominations of the Earth:” Rev 17:5 She is carried by (supported) by a beast of 7 heads and 10 horns (political system of the world) Rev 17:7

The 7 heads are 7 mountains (governments); there are 7 kings…5 are fallen, one is and the other is not yet come.



Who are these? Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum has given some teaching on this in his book, The Footsteps of the Messiah. I recommend this for purchase as it is an excellent resource. I will try to explain his Scriptural and historical information. It has made Scripture much clearer to me. I pray it will do the same for you.



Daniel chapters 2 and 7 describe the Four Gentile empires although the same information is not included in both chapters. In most of their content, the two chapters present the same thing…there will be four Gentile empires, one following the other, culminating with the destruction of the Fourth Empire by the Messiah and the setting up of the Messianic Kingdom.
Both chapters point out the diversity of the fourth kingdom and the fact that it goes through several stages. It is within the stages where there is a slight difference in the two texts.



Daniel 2 shows 3 stages of the Fourth Empire, two of which are mentioned in Ch 7. Daniel 7 mentions 4 stages of the Fourth Empire, two of which are mentioned in Daniel 2. If we combine the two together, it looks like this:

1. Babylonian Empire
2. The Medo-Persian Empire

3. The Hellenistic Empire
a. The United Stage
b. The Four Division Stage
4. The Fourth Empire – Rome which was Imperialistic
a. The United Stage – The Roman Empire
b. The two Division Stage – East/West Balance of Power
c. The One World Government Stage
d. The Ten Division Stage – The Ten kingdoms
e. The Antichrist Stage- Absolute Imperialism
5. The Messianic Kingdom



Now, to Rev 17:7 This is the same beast as in Rev 13 and Dan 7. The beast has 10 horns and 7 heads.



⁹ And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
¹⁰ And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.



There are many places in the world where there are seven mountains, so it is incorrect to pinpoint Rome. The word “mountain” is used symbolically as a king, kingdom, or throne. It is the same here. Verse 10 tells uses the pronoun “they” represent seven kings. In John’s day, 5 were fallen, one was present then and one more was to come. (If this refers to the city of Rome, then five hills should no longer be in existence, one would be there now and another would arise in the future!)
The 10 horns and 7 heads are kings but have a difference between them. The 10 horns are contemporaries. They all rise and reign at the same time. BUT, the 7 heads are chronological/sequential. At John’s writing, 5 were history and were no more.
The 6^th head-mountain-king was present and in control and there was one more to come.

History clarifies what John wrote. The Fourth Empire was the Empire of Imperialism and was present when John wrote, so that is the 6^th head. It was also the time of the first stage of Imperialism, the United Stage or the Roman Empire Stage. Rome went through 5 types of governments before it developed into the first stage of Imperialism:


The Tarquin Kings (753-510 BC) The First Head
The Counsulors (510-494 BC) The Second Head
The Plebians or Dictators (494-390 BC) The Third Head
The Republicans or Decimvers (390-59 BC) The Fourth Head (Oligarchy of Ten)
The Triumvirate (59-27 BC) The Fifth Head

These are the five heads which are fallen as noted by John. The 6^th head was then present and will continue into the middle of the Tribulation period. Before the Fourth Gentile Empire of Imperialism developed, these five types of governments preceded it. So, the 6^th head includes the first four stages of the Fourth Gentile Empire of Imperialism. There is one stage to come…the 7^th stage which is the Antichrist Stage of Absolute Imperialism.



¹¹ And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.



John describes the Antichrist as being an 8^th but of the seven. These are sequential heads and the Antichrist is the last to appear in the final history of the 7 heads.



How is he and 8^th? This is his relationship to the 10 horns. The 10 horns represent the 10 kingdoms that come out of the One World Government. These are contemporaries. But in Daniel 7, when the A/C begins to take control, he uproots 3 of the 10 horns, killing them and leaving 7 for the remainder of the Tribulation. The A/C is contemporary with these seven, making him the 8^th.



So, the word “beast” in Revelation, then, is a reference to the Empire of Imperialism in its final and fifth stage, the A/C Stage as well as personally of the A/C himself.



So, we are currently in Stage b of the Fourth Empire. The rest is yet to come!

This is a lot of information, I know, having much to digest. For those who have interest, a suggestion would be to copy/print what is listed here and then carefully read the Scriptures again, asking the Holy Spirit to guide you. You may or may not come into agreement but that is not my task. My task is to share what I know and believe to be true.