Christians are Not Under the Law of Moses

[Forty9er]

Here is my response to dmatic in the other thread:

It is very simple. The law of liberty is the law of Christ:

John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

And no, the law of Christ isn't the Law of Moses. Paul makes that clear:

1Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
1Cor 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

And being under the law of Christ gives us a freedom from sin (Rom 6:7). But that freedom doesn't mean that we no longer sin but that we now have the ability to not sin because of the indwelling Spirit. And being under the law of Christ also means that we are no longer under the Law of Moses which also gives us freedom:

Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.

That is what the law of liberty is.

Then dmatic responded with the following:

OK, forty9er, you accuse some of us of not answering what you consider to be great objections to the position we may have of loving the Law of God as given through Moses. But, I think we, in other threads, have answered your objections, but apparently not to your satisfaction. So, do you mind if I re-ask you one, that I do not think you have answered to my satisfaction?

The law of Christ would suggest everything that He commanded, correct? That would be His Law. For example, at the Great commission passage, He tells the disciples to go into all the world....teaching everyone to observe all things that He had commanded them (Matt. 28:19-20)

One of the things He had commanded them was NOT to think that the Law of Moses had been annulled. Yet, you teach the exact opposite of Jesus' command.

I don't get it. Can you enlighten me? Thanks

You say that you answer my objections but you clearly don't understand because even in this response to me you are avoiding addressing the specific Scriptures that I posted and my interpretation of them. Instead you say "what about this verse and this verse". Please directly address 1Cor 9:20-21 and Gal 5:1-3 by telling me what you think they mean, with your justifications, and why my interpretation is wrong.

[Off-Grid Organics]

whoops...didn't copy correctly...no time today---I'll be bach (arnold voice)

[Forty9er]

whoops...didn't copy correctly...no time today---I'll be bach (arnold voice)

Why don't we try to not cut and paste someone else's ideas and just discuss our own ideas and understandings. And for you, OGO, maybe you could start by addressing the following verses that I quoted previously:

Gal 4:21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman.

I said that from these verses it is clear that the "Law" that Christians are not under is the Law of Moses. How can they mean anything else? Let's take this a piece at a time and I will wait for you to address that issue before I discuss anything else with you.

[Off-Grid Organics]

Why don't we try to not cut and paste someone else's ideas and just discuss our own ideas and understandings. And for you, OGO, maybe you could start by addressing the following verses that I quoted previously:



I said that from these verses it is clear that the "Law" that Christians are not under is the Law of Moses. How can they mean anything else? Let's take this a piece at a time and I will wait for you to address that issue before I discuss anything else with you.

Came in for breakfast now and saw this. I very RARELY EVER post other's material, but being short on time, I tried to post a transcript of this that covers much more ground that a couple verses you provide. The transcript didn't paste well, so here is the video...and again, I'll be bach!

http://www.119ministries.com/teachin...under-the-law/

[Forty9er]

Came in for breakfast now and saw this. I very RARELY EVER post other's material, but being short on time, I tried to post a transcript of this that covers much more ground that a couple verses you provide. The transcript didn't paste well, so here is the video...and again, I'll be bach!

http://www.119ministries.com/teachin...under-the-law/

I know that Biblical doctrines aren't based on a single verse or couple of verses but at this point I don't want to address an entire doctrine all at once because it becomes a one sided broadcast rather than an individual discussion about the meaning of specific verses. And that is where we need to start. And any doctrine which doesn't address and account for verses which appear to contradict is a problematic doctrine.

So I really don't want to look at or address some comprehensive argument that you may want to present. I would rather make this a verse by verse discussion which I think is something more manageable.

[somoprepper08]

Actually, no one is under the law any more. Unless they voluntarily put themselves back under it. And since God gave us freedom of choice, you can choose to do that if you want to.
There is a NEW covenant now that Jesus ratified by shedding His blood. That's the covenant/deal that I got under when I accepted Jesus.

[LittleFish]

There is a NEW covenant now that Jesus ratified by shedding His blood. That's the covenant/deal that I got under when I accepted Jesus.

Amen! Me, too!

************************************************** ********
My 2 cents on the topic of this thread (again)
************************************************** ********

The Law given through Moses is The Law of God that Moses received in letters humans could understand. As the late and beloved Bible teacher would say, God put the cookies on the lower shelf where the kiddies could reach them with this form of His Law. And even at that, having been given that most simplified possible version of The Law of God, it was impossible for fallen man to keep it.

The Law of God can never be changed or done away with in this realm or the eternal. The Law of God is always there, the fabric of our existence, and I would say, not at all jokingly, that the Law of God includes the laws of physics that the physical creation (even man!) perfectly obeys.

In Jesus' earthly ministry, He taught that The Law of God is more than what is written. It is a matter of the heart. We must love. First, most, and best, we love God; also, we love one another as fully as we ourselves long to be loved.

The Ten Commandments and other rules given to God's people in the desert were pale shadows compared to what The Law of God requires of us, but they show us how it looks to love God and others: Put God first, reverence His Name, worship no other, make no image, receive His rest; and when it comes to your fellow human, do not steal, lie, covet, take liberties with their spouse, or kill them.

It is only a starting point, however. Jesus would fulfill it (1) in His perfect example (not even the shadow of sin upon Him until He took ours upon Himself), (2) the one and only perfect and satisfactory sacrifice, and (3) the absolute and complete victory over death and the grave that He attained for us all.

With His perfect fulfillment of all things, the letter of the law is no longer ruling God's people, yet the truth and principles of The Law of God remain forever. Not one stroke of the seemingly least significant letter within The Law of God shall ever be removed. The penalty has been paid, forever, and we receive our pardon for transgression of The Law of God, living and eternal, through Christ alone.

The Law of God is now written on the hearts of His people, as promised through the prophet Jeremiah, beginning at the moment we receive the Holy Spirit as our Teacher and Guide. The more we commune with God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, the more we receive of Him and His Love within us. As His Love -- as He -- increasingly reigns in our hearts and minds, we are more and more able to obey The Law of God in thought, word, and deed.

Jesus observed The Law of God more perfectly than any other. It was not a big challenge for Him to follow the written version as He was born without sin and, as God, He embodied it perfectly. Though He never transgressed, He observed the Mosaic traditions because, at that time, God's people were still under the written version of The Law of God and would be until Christ Jesus entirely and perfectly fulfilled it, as He said He would do.

We are no longer under the written Law as given to Moses. We are so very far beyond that now. He dwells within us, making His will known. His work is now forever complete. We rest in Him always and fully.

I don't understand what the attraction is or what the difference could be, really, that draws people to adhere to the form of The Law of God given through Moses. What we have under grace is so much more, better, and totally natural to the Christian than a written code. And it fulfills The Law of God perfectly, as Christ fulfilled all, we are found fully in Him, and we are filled with His Holy Spirit as our Comforter, Teacher, and Guide. Immanuel.

Which brings to mind a song . . .

[Off-Grid Organics]

How can they mean anything else?

Great question!

Before we shift focus to your two verses, perhaps a refresher course is in order to consider how He feels about His Torah, lest we get confused without foundation when we read the newer writings where MANY ‘laws’ are spoken of. He is a just a mere sampling of verses; a few out of hundreds that could be brought out…

Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the Torah of יהוה, And he meditates in His Torah day and night.
Psa 19:7 The Torah of יהוה is perfect, bringing back the being; The witness of יהוה is trustworthy, making wise the simple;
Psa 19:8 The orders of יהוה are straight, rejoicing the heart; The command of יהוה is clear, enlightening the eyes;
Psa 37:31 The Torah of his Elohim is in his heart¹; His steps do not slide. Footnote: ¹Dt. 6:6, Ps. 40:8, Ps. 119:11, Isa. 51:7.
Psa 40:8 I have delighted to do Your pleasure, O my Elohim, And Your Torah is within my heart¹.” Footnote: ¹Ps. 37:31, Ps. 119:11, Isa. 51:7, Heb. 10:7-9.
Psa 94:12 Blessed is the man You discipline, O Yah, And instruct out of Your Torah,
Psa 119:1 Blessed are the perfect in the way, Who walk in the Torah of יהוה!
Psa 119:18 Open my eyes, that I might see Wonders from Your Torah.
Psa 119:44 That I might guard Your Torah continually, Forever and ever;
Psa 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
Psa 119:72 The Torah of Your mouth is better to me Than thousands of gold and silver pieces.
Psa 119:142 Your righteousness is righteousness forever, And Your Torah is truth.
Pro 4:2 For I gave you good doctrine: Do not forsake my Torah.
(Joh 7:16 יהושע answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.¹ Footnote: ¹Deut. 18:15-20.)
Pro 6:23 For the command is a lamp, And the Torah light, And reproofs of discipline a way of life,
Pro 7:2 Guard my commands and live, And my Torah as the apple of your eye.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the witness, seal the Torah among my taught ones.

Just from these few verses we find the torah to be DELIGHTFUL, MEDITATIVE, ABLE TO MAKE WISE, PERFECT, TRUSTWORTHY, REJOICEFUL, CLEAN, ENLIGHTENING, WONDEROUS, BLESSED, ETERNAL, FREEDOM/LIBERTY, BETTER THAN GOLD OR SILVER, TRUTH, GOOD DOCTRINE, A LAMP, A LIGHT, TO BE GUARDED AS THE APPLE OF ONE’S EYE, BOUND AND SEALED WITHIN HIS DISCIPLES…

Those who oppose don’t fare so well…just a very few of those as well…

Isa 8:20 To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no light.
Isa 30:9 that this is a rebellious people, lying children, children who refuse to hear the Torah of יהוה,
Pro 28:4 Those who forsake the Torah praise the wrong, Those who guard the Torah strive with them.
Pro 28:9 He who turns away his ear from hearing the Torah, Even his prayer is an abomination¹. Footnote: ¹See also 15:29, Isa. 59:1-2, John 9:31, 1 John 3:22.
Isa 51:7 “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah: do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their revilings. “For a moth eats them like a garment, and a worm eats them like wool; but My righteousness is forever, and My deliverance to all generations.”

Just from those few verses we find they HAVE NO LIGHT, REBELLIOUS, LIARS, PRAISE THE WRONG, ABOMINABLE PRAYERS, REVILERS---AND THEY BECOME FOOD FOR MOTHS AND WORMS.

Here is the last mention of “law” in the TaNaK:
Mal 4:4 “Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Horĕḇ for all Yisra’ĕl – laws and right-rulings.

And here we find the first mention of “law” in the Brit Hadasha:
Mat 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.. “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.¹ Footnote: ¹Lk. 16:17. “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.

The reason I had to lay the foundation first was to establish the fact that this cannot be confused with ma’asim or takanot…those “laws” arising out of the Jewish concept of an ORAL TORAH given at Sinai…the very same Messiah took such issue with. Sadly, the “greek” makes no distinction. At any rate, it was a BIG issue 2000 years ago, and Paul—a Pharisee of Pharisees—was quite learned under Gamaliel, and tackled these things full bore….Just as Messiah did:

Mat 15:9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commands of men.’ ”¹ Footnote: ¹Isa. 29:13, Mk. 7:7, 2 Ki. 17:19.
Mat 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you shut up the reign of the heavens before men, for you do not go in, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

The burdens were so great in that day, they railed on Messiah for healing on Sabbath…and accused Him of breaking it…or plucking some grain to eat…or even not ceremonially washing hands before meals!

A popular and timely example for this time of year would be:

Blessed are you, Lord, our God, sovereign of the universe, Who has sanctified us with His commandments and commanded us to light the lights of Chanukkah. (Amen)
These things just do not exist in Torah…but the battle was very real back then!

So, now that a bit of foundation is laid, I’ll get back to the discussion when I can so we can get to the heart of this issue.

Shalom!

[Off-Grid Organics]

How can they mean anything else?

Great question!

Before we shift focus to your two verses, perhaps a refresher course is in order to consider how He feels about His Torah, lest we get confused without foundation when we read the newer writings where MANY ‘laws’ are spoken of. He is a just a mere sampling of verses; a few out of hundreds that could be brought out…

Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the Torah of יהוה, And he meditates in His Torah day and night.
Psa 19:7 The Torah of יהוה is perfect, bringing back the being; The witness of יהוה is trustworthy, making wise the simple;
Psa 19:8 The orders of יהוה are straight, rejoicing the heart; The command of יהוה is clear, enlightening the eyes;
Psa 37:31 The Torah of his Elohim is in his heart¹; His steps do not slide. Footnote: ¹Dt. 6:6, Ps. 40:8, Ps. 119:11, Isa. 51:7.
Psa 40:8 I have delighted to do Your pleasure, O my Elohim, And Your Torah is within my heart¹.” Footnote: ¹Ps. 37:31, Ps. 119:11, Isa. 51:7, Heb. 10:7-9.
Psa 94:12 Blessed is the man You discipline, O Yah, And instruct out of Your Torah,
Psa 119:1 Blessed are the perfect in the way, Who walk in the Torah of יהוה!
Psa 119:18 Open my eyes, that I might see Wonders from Your Torah.
Psa 119:44 That I might guard Your Torah continually, Forever and ever;
Psa 119:45 And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts.
Psa 119:72 The Torah of Your mouth is better to me Than thousands of gold and silver pieces.
Psa 119:142 Your righteousness is righteousness forever, And Your Torah is truth.
Pro 4:2 For I gave you good doctrine: Do not forsake my Torah.
(Joh 7:16 יהושע answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.¹ Footnote: ¹Deut. 18:15-20.)
Pro 6:23 For the command is a lamp, And the Torah light, And reproofs of discipline a way of life,
Pro 7:2 Guard my commands and live, And my Torah as the apple of your eye.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the witness, seal the Torah among my taught ones.

Just from these few verses we find the torah to be DELIGHTFUL, MEDITATIVE, ABLE TO MAKE WISE, PERFECT, TRUSTWORTHY, REJOICEFUL, CLEAN, ENLIGHTENING, WONDEROUS, BLESSED, ETERNAL, FREEDOM/LIBERTY, BETTER THAN GOLD OR SILVER, TRUTH, GOOD DOCTRINE, A LAMP, A LIGHT, TO BE GUARDED AS THE APPLE OF ONE’S EYE, BOUND AND SEALED WITHIN HIS DISCIPLES…

Those who oppose don’t fare so well…just a very few of those as well…

Isa 8:20 To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no light.
Isa 30:9 that this is a rebellious people, lying children, children who refuse to hear the Torah of יהוה,
Pro 28:4 Those who forsake the Torah praise the wrong, Those who guard the Torah strive with them.
Pro 28:9 He who turns away his ear from hearing the Torah, Even his prayer is an abomination¹. Footnote: ¹See also 15:29, Isa. 59:1-2, John 9:31, 1 John 3:22.
Isa 51:7 “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah: do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their revilings. “For a moth eats them like a garment, and a worm eats them like wool; but My righteousness is forever, and My deliverance to all generations.”

Just from those few verses we find they HAVE NO LIGHT, REBELLIOUS, LIARS, PRAISE THE WRONG, ABOMINABLE PRAYERS, REVILERS---AND THEY BECOME FOOD FOR MOTHS AND WORMS.

Here is the last mention of “law” in the TaNaK:
Mal 4:4 “Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Horĕḇ for all Yisra’ĕl – laws and right-rulings.

And here we find the first mention of “law” in the Brit Hadasha:
Mat 5:17-19 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.. “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.¹ Footnote: ¹Lk. 16:17. “Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.

The reason I had to lay the foundation first was to establish the fact that this cannot be confused with ma’asim or takanot…those “laws” arising out of the Jewish concept of an ORAL TORAH given at Sinai…the very same Messiah took such issue with. Sadly, the “greek” makes no distinction. At any rate, it was a BIG issue 2000 years ago, and Paul—a Pharisee of Pharisees—was quite learned under Gamaliel, and tackled these things full bore….Just as Messiah did:

Mat 15:9 ‘But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as teachings the commands of men.’ ”¹ Footnote: ¹Isa. 29:13, Mk. 7:7, 2 Ki. 17:19.
Mat 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you shut up the reign of the heavens before men, for you do not go in, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

The burdens were so great in that day, they railed on Messiah for healing on Sabbath…and accused Him of breaking it…or plucking some grain to eat…or even not ceremonially washing hands before meals!

A popular and timely example for this time of year would be:

Blessed are you, Lord, our God, sovereign of the universe, Who has sanctified us with His commandments and commanded us to light the lights of Chanukkah. (Amen)
These things just do not exist in Torah…but the battle was very real back then!

So, now that a bit of foundation is laid, I’ll get back to the discussion when I can so we can get to the heart of this issue.

Shalom!

[Off-Grid Organics]

Sorry about the DP (???????)