Christians are Not Under the Law of Moses

[Off-Grid Organics]

No need to apologize for the double post, Off-Grid. Great post that should be read twice!

It's important to have the foundation in place because this society is so far removed from the culture back then and the issues being dealt with. As we see, YHWH is pretty darn pleased with Torah, as with His Son Who walked it out perfectly as our example to 'walk as He walked'. NOWHERE do we find, as many modern day Christians would say, it is ever referred to as any type of bondage...that would be like saying they came out of Egyptian bondage right back into bondage imposed by YHWH!

No, the bondage comes from MAN's laws who elevated THEIR words above His Words! Notice what is written even today:

"The Written Torah cannot be understood without the oral tradition. Hence, if anything, the Oral Torah is the more important of the two."
"The Oral Torah is therefore the basis of God's covenant with Israel. It is even more dear to God than the Written Torah."
http://www.aish.com/jl/b/ol/48943186.html

Mat 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you go about the land and the sea to win one convert, and when he is won, you make him a son of Gehenna twofold more than yourselves.

I believe this is where modern-day Christians make a grave error in not understanding these matters.

One day, the distinction will become very clear:

Isa 2:2 And it shall be in the latter days that the mountain of the House of יהוה is established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills. And all nations shall flow to it.
Isa 2:3 And many peoples shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of יהוה, to the House of the Elohim of Yaʽaqoḇ, and let Him teach1 us His ways1, and let us walk in His paths1, for out of Tsiyon comes forth the Torah1, and the Word1 of יהוה from Yerushalayim.” Footnote: 1His ways, His paths, the teaching and the Word of יהוה are used synonymously.

Isa 42:4 “He does not become weak or crushed, until He has established right-ruling in the earth. And the coastlands wait for His Torah.”

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall make a new covenant with the house of Yisra’ĕl and with the house of Yehuḏah1, Footnote: 1See Heb. 8:8-12, Heb. 10:16-17.
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares יהוה.
Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 “And no longer shall they teach, each one his neighbour, and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know יהוה,’ for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares יהוה. “For I shall forgive their crookedness, and remember their sin no more.”

[Forty9er]

1Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
1Cor 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

Not sure what your "interpretation" is, forty9er, and maybe I should wait for your definition of the phrase: "Under the law", and, I am running out of time this morning....but, ....Paul mentions three groups of people here: Jews, those under the law, and those outside the law. Apparently, he did not consider himself to be in any of these three groups? But, he "became" as one of their members to "win them". To the Jews he became AS a Jew, in order to win them. To those under the law, he became as one under the law, but what does that mean? (Later) Is Paul saying that the Jews are not under the law? If so, your understanding may yet need to be enlightened in order to make an assertion as bold as the one you entitled this thread with?

I think that Paul is talking about three groups of people in these verses - Jews, Gentiles, and Christians (although the only Christian he mentions is himself). And that view would be consistent with the rest of the NT where only those three basic groups are mentioned. For example:

1Cor 10:32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God,

The Jews that he mentions are those "under the law" although by mentioning them separately he may be including proselytes in the group who are under the Law. And the Gentiles are those who are "outside the law" because they were never given the Law of Moses. And since the subject he is talking about is spreading the Gospel, the people in these two groups that he has in mind, Jews and Gentiles, have not been saved. And for those who are saved the distinction between Jew and Gentile (Greek) is to be eliminated, Gal 3:28.

In addition to there being three groups of people referred to in these verses, there are three laws that are talked about as well - the Law of Moses, the law of God, and the law of Christ. The law of God and the law of Christ are mentioned separately and I believe every other reference to "law" is a reference to the Law of Moses.

My previous quote of John 13:34 in regard to the law of Christ shouldn't be taken as an absolute definition of the law of Christ but it contains the core of a Christian's duty to others. The other aspects of the law of Christ can be found throughout the teachings of the NT.

I believe the law of God that is mentioned is that unwritten law from God which applies to everyone and contains all of the basic unchanging moral principles that God demands. It applied to man before the Law of Moses was given and it is contained within the Law of Moses and the law of Christ. As LittleFish has said "The Law of God is more than what is written. It is a matter of the heart."

So what do these verses say in regard to the subject of this thread? First, the Jews were given the Law of Moses and are under the Law until they place their faith in Christ. But Paul, representing all Christians, says that he is not under the Law of Moses. You can look up the definition of the Greek word translated as "under" and what you will find is essentially an "inferior position or condition", which as I have said before, means that Christians are not under the authority of the Law.

[Off-Grid Organics]

To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.

EVERYBODY outside of Messiah is under the law (of sin and death). Notice: Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before YHWH.

When he says “under the law,” is he referring to the Jews who were legally bound to follow the law of Moses (or the Torah), as the mainstream Christian church teaches? If this is the case, then why does he speak about the whole world becoming guilty before Elohim? The whole world wasn’t Jewish, so how could Paul be referring to the whole world being “under the law” as in being obligated to obey the law of Moses? Furthermore, how is it that the whole world is “guilty before Elohim”?


The answer is simple. The whole world, including the Jews, is guilty of breaking the laws of Elohim (e.g., idolatry, violating the Sabbath, murder, adultery, stealing, lying, eating unclean meats, failing to keep YHWH’s holidays, witchcraft, etc.). In other words, the whole world has sinned, for sin is the violation of the Torah (1 Jn 3:4)

[Forty9er]

Great question!

Before we shift focus to your two verses, perhaps a refresher course is in order to consider how He feels about His Torah, lest we get confused without foundation when we read the newer writings where MANY ‘laws’ are spoken of. He is a just a mere sampling of verses; a few out of hundreds that could be brought out…

I am still waiting and waiting and waiting ... for you to directly address Gal 4:21-22. It seems you are more interested in trying to change the subject than simply addressing these two verses and telling me how they can't mean what they are clearly saying. I give dmatic much more credit for directly talking about the verses I asked him about. As I said previously, I won't discuss anything else with you until you give me a direct answer to these two verses.

[LittleFish]

I think the difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is based on man and the other is based on God. In some ways man is capable of loving someone else as he loves himself but no man, in himself, is capable of loving someone else as God loves. That is why the Law is only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very image.

Absolutely right, Forty9er. We have a new standard today in Christ Jesus, to love as God loved, which goes far beyond the written Law as given to Moses. And it is extremely important that we recognize this, for in the next verse He says:

"By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Loving as He loves, times upon times above the love we were capable of living in before Him, is the evidence that we are in Him, not "food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— things which are a mere shadow of what is to come but the substance belongs to Christ." -- Colossians 2:16-17

[Off-Grid Organics]

Colossians 2 in CONTEXT: We do LOVE context, right?


A quick look at using Col 2:16 as a ‘proof’ text against keeping Sabbath, feast days, or being able to now eat rats or pigs, etc. It’s time to put that one out to pasture. Usually, folks don’t even try that verse anymore after seeing it says opposite of what they think. Many of you also have to confront this issue…people pulling one verse completely out of its context and say “ah-ha! there it is! we do not have to obey!” Oddly, that verse IN CONTEXT is their ruin! Let’s have a careful, objective look at these words IN CONTEXT…


Col 2:4 And this I say, lest “ANY MAN” should “beguile you with enticing words.”


Col 2:8 Beware lest “ANY MAN” “spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men”, after the “rudiments of the world”, and “not after Messiah”.


Col 2:18 Let “NO MAN” “beguile you” of “your reward” in a voluntary humility and “worshipping of angels”, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, “vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind”,


Col 2:22 … after the “commandments and DOCTRINES OF MEN?”


Col 2:16-17 Let “NO MAN” therefore “judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths… – which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah”.


Let’s identify this ‘MAN’ who is NOT to judge us…a beguiler, a spoiler through philosophy, vainly deceitful, a man after the TRADITIONS OF MEN, puffed up in the FLESH, not after Messiah, rudiments of the world, AFTER THE COMMANMENTS AND DOCTRINES OF MEN! Hmmmm…chew on that.


My gosh, how clear can it be? This ‘man’ IS NOT part of the body of Messiah, but an outsider still in paganism, who was judging the body of believers for KEEPING those things! To continue to post to the contrary proves you do not want context, proves you do not want truth, and proves you have an agenda against obeying. His Sabbath, His feast days, His new moons, and eating clean food are His Word; NOT traditions of men. They were a GIVEN in those days, and are still alive and well for anyone who desire covenant with YHUH. Now, do you side with YHUH, or do you side with this ‘MAN’, this outsider, being spoken of? Who do you identify with? It’s time to choose! If you are still bent on disobeying, then you will have to find another verse to make you feel better about your sin.


That one is out to pasture.

[Off-Grid Organics]

I won't discuss anything else with you until you give me a direct answer to these two verses.

Like I care? I'm not on your schedule, nor do I do things your way. I like laying a firm foundation first, as I have been doing. Enjoy your wait.

[LittleFish]

Colossians 2 in CONTEXT: We do LOVE context, right?

A quick look at using Col 2:16 as a ‘proof’ text against keeping Sabbath, feast days, or being able to now eat rats or pigs, etc. It’s time to put that one out to pasture.

Your errant theory on this passage has been discussed on this board in the past, apparently so much so that people who know better didn't even bother to respond to this thread: http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/s...ead.php?237074 . . . and I see no cause to break with that good practice here.

[Forty9er]

Your errant theory on this passage has been discussed on this board in the past, apparently so much so that people who know better didn't even bother to respond to this thread: http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/s...ead.php?237074 . . . and I see no cause to break with that good practice here.

You are wiser than I am, LittleFish! I didn't get involved in that thread and I am beginning to see that I shouldn't have started this one. I'm sure he directed that thread at me as well as his previous post in this one. It's interesting how Law keeping and self righteousness go together.

[Off-Grid Organics]

Your errant theory on this passage has been discussed on this board in the past, apparently so much so that people who know better didn't even bother to respond to this thread: http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/s...ead.php?237074 . . . and I see no cause to break with that good practice here.

Where is the error? Just perhaps it was accurate and no rebuttal could be offered? It is simply the same Sabbath that was blessed and sanctified at Creation (before "Jews", before Sinai), the same Sabbath Messiah kept---as well as Paul and the rest of the apostles, and the same feasts they also honored and kept. AND, it's the 4th commandment. I know Christians have adopted pagan days in replacement of His set times, but there is no Scripture authorizing that. Another thing that is sure, there will be no confusion about it in the future:

Isa 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand.
Isa 66:23 “And it shall be that from New Moon to New Moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה.
Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me1. For their worm shall not die, and their fire not be quenched. And they shall be repulsive to all flesh!” Footnote: 1See 24:6, 34:2-3, Ps. 110:6, Jer. 25:33.

Zec 14:16 And it shall be that all who are left from all the gentiles which came up against Yerushalayim, shall go up from year to year to bow themselves to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, and to observe the Festival of Booths.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that if anyone of the clans of the earth does not come up to Yerushalayim to bow himself to the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts, on them there is to be no rain.