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Thread: Jesus' command concerning God's Law

  1. #1
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    Default Jesus' command concerning God's Law

    Hopefully, this "argument" for the relevance of God's Law will be airtight!

    Some on this forum hold to the idea that Jesus' death on the cross "ended" the commandments of God to all people who desire to love Him, and want to know how to do so. We love Him by keeping His commandments, correct?

    Well, what did Jesus say after His resurrection, after His death on the cross? Matthew 28, I believe contains His instructions to us. Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, ...teaching them to observe all the things He had commanded them.

    One of the things He command them was NOT to think that the Law had been done away with.

    Settled?

  2. #2
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    If Sabbath was done away, He should have told His followers...

    Luk 23:55 And the women who had come with Him from Galil followed after, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid.
    Luk 23:56 And having returned, they prepared spices and perfumes. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the command.
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    Hopefully, this "argument" for the relevance of God's Law will be airtight!

    Some on this forum hold to the idea that Jesus' death on the cross "ended" the commandments of God to all people who desire to love Him, and want to know how to do so. We love Him by keeping His commandments, correct?

    Well, what did Jesus say after His resurrection, after His death on the cross? Matthew 28, I believe contains His instructions to us. Go into all the world and make disciples of all nations, ...teaching them to observe all the things He had commanded them.

    One of the things He command them was NOT to think that the Law had been done away with.

    Settled?
    Absolutely it is settled. What were "His commandments"? Here is what we are told:

    John 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
    John 13:35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    John 15:12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
    John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
    John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
    John 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.
    1John 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
    1John 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
    1John 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.
    And the confirmation that this is what Christ commanded and not the Law is given by His Apostles:

    Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
    Acts 15:29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

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    Rom 8:4 so that the righteousness of the Torah should be completed in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
    Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the matters of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the matters of the Spirit.
    Rom 8:6 For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace.
    Rom 8:7 Because the mind of the flesh is enmity towards Elohim, for it does not subject itself1 to the Torah of Elohim2, neither indeed is it able, Footnotes: 1Or does not obey. 2John 15:5, 1 John 4:4, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:18.
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    the cross "ended" the commandments of God
    Some will try to separate 'commands of Messiah' from commands of our Father. That won't work:Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the commands of Elohim and possessing the witness of יהושע Messiah.

    Pro 4:2 For I gave you good doctrine: Do not forsake my Torah.

    Joh 7:16 יהושע answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.1 Footnote: 1Deut. 18:15-20.
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



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    Hey 9er,

    You might be interested in this, some quotes from Tertullian circa late 100's early 200's AD:

    But it is mainly the deeds of a love so noble that lead many to put a brand upon us.
    See
    , they say,
    how they love one59 another
    ,


    What wonder if that great love of Christians towards one another is desecrated by you!
    Our feast explains itself by its name The Greeks call it
    agape
    , i.e., affection.
    Taken from "The Apology" chapter 39 sentences 7, 14, 16.

    http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf03/anf03-05.htm#39_7

    Also please find below an ....article entitled "An Answer to the Jew"
    by Tertullian.


    Chapter 1. Occasion of Writing. Relative Position of Jews and Gentiles Illustrated.

    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)][/COLOR][COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.87)]It happened very recently a dispute was held between a Christian and a Jewish proselyte. Alternately with contentious cable they each spun out the day until evening. By the opposing din, moreover, of some partisans of the individuals, truth began to be overcast by a sort of cloud. It was therefore our pleasure that that which, owing to the confused noise of disputation, could be less fully elucidated point by point, should be more carefully looked into, and that the pen should determine, for reading purposes, the questions handled.[/COLOR]
    ..................................there's more to chapter 1......................

    Chapter 2. The Law Anterior to Moses.

    Stand we, therefore, foot to foot, and determine we the sum and substance of the actual question within definite lists.
    For why should God, the founder of the universe, the Governor of the whole world, the Fashioner of humanity, the Sower of universal nations be believed to have given a law through Moses to one people, and not be said to have assigned it to all nations? For unless He had given it to all by no means would He have habitually permitted even proselytes out of the nations to have access to it. But — as is congruous with the goodness of God, and with His equity, as the Fashioner of mankind— He gave to all nations the selfsame law, which at definite and stated times He enjoined should be observed, when He willed, and through whom He willed, and as He willed. For in the beginning of the world He gave to Adam himself and Eve a law, that they were not to eat of the fruit of the tree planted in the midst of paradise; but that, if they did contrariwise, by death they were to die. Which law had continued enough for them, had it been kept. For in this law given to Adam we recognise in embryo all the precepts which afterwards sprouted forth when given through Moses; that is, You shall love the Lord your God from your whole heart and out of your whole soul; You shall love your neighbour as yourself; You shall not kill; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; False witness you shall not utter; Honour your father and mother; and, That which is another's, shall you not covet. For the primordial law was given to Adam and Eve in paradise, as the womb of all the precepts of God. In short, if they had loved the Lord their God, they would not have contravened His precept; if they had habitually loved their neighbour — that is, themselves — they would not have believed the persuasion of the serpent, and thus would not have committed murder upon themselves, by falling from immortality, by contravening God's precept; from theft also they would have abstained, if they had not stealthily tasted of the fruit of the tree, nor had been anxious to skulk beneath a tree to escape the view of the Lord their God; nor would they have been made partners with the falsehood-asseverating devil, by believing him that they would be like God; and thus they would not have offended God either, as their Father, who had fashioned them from clay of the earth, as out of the womb of a mother; if they had not coveted another's, they would not have tasted of the unlawful fruit.
    Therefore, in this general and primordial law of God, the observance of which, in the case of the tree's fruit, He had sanctioned, we recognise enclosed all the precepts specially of the posterior Law, which germinated when disclosed at their proper times. For the subsequent superinduction of a law is the work of the same Being who had before premised a precept; since it is His province withal subsequently to train, who had before resolved to form, righteous creatures. For what wonder if He extends a discipline who institutes it? If He advances who begins? In short, before the Law of Moses, written in stone-tables, I contend that there was a law unwritten, which was habitually understood naturally, and by the fathers was habitually kept. For whence was Noah found righteous, if in his case the righteousness of a natural law had not preceded? Whence was Abraham accounted a friend of God, if not on the ground of equity and righteousness, (in the observance) of a natural law? Whence was Melchizedek named priest of the most high God, if, before the priesthood of the Levitical law, there were not levites who were wont to offer sacrifices to God? For thus, after the above-mentioned patriarchs, was the Law given to Moses, at that (well-known) time after their exode from Egypt, after the interval and spaces of four hundred years. In fact, it was after Abraham's four hundred and thirty years that the Law was given. Whence we understand that God's law was anterior even to Moses, and was not first (given) in Horeb, nor in Sinai and in the desert, but was more ancient; (existing) first in paradise, subsequently reformed for the patriarchs, and so again for the Jews, at definite periods: so that we are not to give heed to Moses' Law as to the primitive law, but as to a subsequent, which at a definite period God has set forth to the Gentiles too and, after repeatedly promising so to do through the prophets, has reformed for the better; and has premonished that it should come to pass that, just as the law was given through Moses John 1:17 at a definite time, so it should be believed to have been temporarily observed and kept. And let us not annul this power which God has, which reforms the law's precepts answerably to the circumstances of the times, with a view to man's salvation. In fine, let him who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation, and circumcision on the eighth day because of the threat of death, teach us that, for the time past, righteous men kept the Sabbath, or practised circumcision, and were thus rendered friends of God. For if circumcision purges a man since God made Adam uncircumcised, why did He not circumcise him, even after his sinning, if circumcision purges? At all events, in settling him in paradise, He appointed one uncircumcised as colonist of paradise. Therefore, since God originated Adam uncircumcised, and inobservant of the Sabbath, consequently his offspring also, Abel, offering Him sacrifices, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was by Him commended; while He accepted what he was offering in simplicity of heart, and reprobated the sacrifice of his brother Cain, who was not rightly dividing what he was offering. Noah also, uncircumcised — yes, and inobservant of the Sabbath— God freed from the deluge. For Enoch, too, most righteous man, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, He translated from this world; who did not first taste death, in order that, being a candidate for eternal life, he might by this time show us that we also may, without the burden of the law of Moses, please God. Melchizedek also, the priest of the most high God, uncircumcised and inobservant of the Sabbath, was chosen to the priesthood of God. Lot, withal, the brother of Abraham, proves that it was for the merits of righteousness, without observance of the law, that he was freed from the conflagration of the Sodomites.
    Chapter 3. Of Circumcision and the Supercession of the Old Law.

    But Abraham, (you say,) was circumcised. Yes, but he pleased God before his circumcision; nor yet did he observe the Sabbath. For he had accepted circumcision; but such as was to be for a sign of that time, not for a prerogative title to salvation. In fact, subsequent patriarchs were uncircumcised, like Melchizedek, who, uncircumcised, offered to Abraham himself, already circumcised, on his return from battle, bread and wine. But again, (you say) the son of Moses would upon one occasion have been choked by an angel, if Zipporah, had not circumcised the foreskin of the infant with a pebble; whence, there is the greatest peril if any fail to circumcise the foreskin of his flesh. Nay, but if circumcision altogether brought salvation, even Moses himself, in the case of his own son, would not have omitted to circumcise him on the eighth day; whereas it is agreed that Zipporah did it on the journey, at the compulsion of the angel. Consider we, accordingly, that one single infant's compulsory circumcision cannot have prescribed to every people, and founded, as it were, a law for keeping this precept. For God, foreseeing that He was about to give this circumcision to the people of Israel for a sign, not for salvation, urges the circumcision of the son of Moses, their future leader, for this reason; that, since He had begun, through him, to give the People the precept of circumcision, the people should not despise it, from seeing this example (of neglect) already exhibited conspicuously in their leader's son. For circumcision had to be given; but as a sign, whence Israel in the last time would have to be distinguished, when, in accordance with their deserts, they should be prohibited from entering the holy city, as we see through the words of the prophets, saying, Your land is desert; your cities utterly burnt with fire; your country, in your sight, strangers shall eat up; and, deserted and subverted by strange peoples, the daughter of Zion shall be derelict, like a shed in a vineyard, and like a watchhouse in a cucumber-field, and as it were a city which is being stormed. Why so? Because the subsequent discourse of the prophet reproaches them, saying, Sons have I begotten and upraised, but they have reprobated me; and again, And if you shall have outstretched hands, I will avert my face from you; and if you shall have multiplied prayers, I will not hear you: for your hands are full of blood; Isaiah 1:15 and again, Woe! sinful nation; a people full of sins; wicked sons; you have quite forsaken God, and have provoked unto indignation the Holy One of Israel. Isaiah 1:4 This, therefore, was God's foresight — that of giving circumcision to Israel, for a sign whence they might be distinguished when the time should arrive wherein their above-mentioned deserts should prohibit their admission into Jerusalem: which circumstance, because it was to be, used to be announced; and, because we see it accomplished, is recognised by us. For, as the carnal circumcision, which was temporary, was in wrought for a sign in a contumacious people, so the spiritual has been given for salvation to an obedient people; while the prophet Jeremiah says, Make a renewal for you, and sow not in thorns; be circumcised to God, and circumcise the foreskin of your heart: and in another place he says, Behold, days shall come, says the Lord, and I will draw up, for the house of Judah and for the house of Jacob, a new testament; not such as I once gave their fathers in the day wherein I led them out from the land of Egypt. Whence we understand that the coming cessation of the former circumcision then given, and the coming procession of a new law (not such as He had already given to the fathers), are announced: just as Isaiah foretold, saying that in the last days the mount of the Lord and the house of God were to be manifest above the tops of the mounts: And it shall be exalted, he says, above the hills; and there shall come over it all nations; and many shall walk, and say, Come, ascend we unto the mount of the Lord, and unto the house of the God of Jacob, Isaiah 2:2-3 — not of Esau, the former son, but of Jacob, the second; that is, of our people, whose mount is Christ, prζcised without concisors' hands, filling every land, shown in the book of Daniel. In short, the coming procession of a new law out of this house of the God of Jacob Isaiah in the ensuing words announces, saying, For from Zion shall go out a law, and the word of the Lord out of Jerusalem, and shall judge among the nations,— that is, among us, who have been called out of the nations —and they shall join to beat their glaives into ploughs, and their lances into sickles; and nations shall not take up glaive against nation, and they shall no more learn to fight. Isaiah 2:3-4 Who else, therefore, are understood but we, who, fully taught by the new law, observe these practices — the old law being obliterated, the coming of whose abolition the action itself demonstrates? For the wont of the old law was to avenge itself by the vengeance of the glaive, and to pluck out eye for eye, and to inflict retaliatory revenge for injury. But the new law's wont was to point to clemency, and to convert to tranquillity the pristine ferocity of glaives and lances, and to remodel the pristine execution of war upon the rivals and foes of the law into the pacific actions of ploughing and tilling the land. Therefore as we have shown above that the coming cessation of the old law and of the carnal circumcision was declared, so, too, the observance of the new law and the spiritual circumcision has shone out into the voluntary obediences of peace. For a people, he says, whom I knew not has served me; in obedience of the ear it has obeyed me. Prophets made the announcement. But what is the people which was ignorant of God, but ours, who in days bygone knew not God? And who, in the hearing of the ear, gave heed to Him, but we, who, forsaking idols, have been converted to God? For Israel— who had been known to God, and who had by Him been upraised in Egypt, and was transported through the Red Sea, and who in the desert, fed forty years with manna, was wrought to the semblance of eternity, and not contaminated with human passions, or fed on this world's meats, but fed on angel's loaves — the manna — and sufficiently bound to God by His benefits — forgot his Lord and God, saying to Aaron: Make us gods, to go before us: for that Moses, who ejected us from the land of Egypt, has quite forsaken us; and what has befallen him we know not. And accordingly we, who were not the people of God in days bygone, have been made His people, by accepting the new law above mentioned, and the new circumcision before foretold.
    Chapter 4. Of the Observance of the Sabbath.

    It follows, accordingly, that, in so far as the abolition of carnal circumcision and of the old law is demonstrated as having been consummated at its specific times, so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary.
    For the Jews say, that from the beginning God sanctified the seventh day, by resting on it from all His works which He made; and that thence it was, likewise, that Moses said to the People: Remember the day of the sabbaths, to sanctify it: every servile work you shall not do therein, except what pertains unto life. Whence we (Christians) understand that we still more ought to observe a sabbath from all servile work always, and not only every seventh day, but through all time. And through this arises the question for us, what sabbath God willed us to keep? For the Scriptures point to a sabbath eternal and a sabbath temporal. For Isaiah the prophet says, Your sabbaths my soul hates; Isaiah 1:13 and in another place he says, My sabbaths you have profaned. Whence we discern that the temporal sabbath is human, and the eternal sabbath is accounted divine; concerning which He predicts through Isaiah: And there shall be, He says, month after month, and day after day, and sabbath after sabbath; and all flesh shall come to adore in Jerusalem, says the Lord; which we understand to have been fulfilled in the times of Christ, when all flesh — that is, every nation — came to adore in Jerusalem God the Father, through Jesus Christ His Son, as was predicted through the prophet: Behold, proselytes through me shall go unto You. Thus, therefore, before this temporal sabbath, there was withal an eternal sabbath foreshown and foretold; just as before the carnal circumcision there was withal a spiritual circumcision foreshown. In short, let them teach us, as we have already premised, that Adam observed the sabbath; or that Abel, when offering to God a holy victim, pleased Him by a religious reverence for the sabbath; or that Enoch, when translated, had been a keeper of the sabbath; or that Noah the ark-builder observed, on account of the deluge, an immense sabbath; or that Abraham, in observance of the sabbath, offered Isaac his son; or that Melchizedek in his priesthood received the law of the sabbath.
    But the Jews are sure to say, that ever since this precept was given through Moses, the observance has been binding. Manifest accordingly it is, that the precept was not eternal nor spiritual, but temporary, which would one day cease. In short, so true is it that it is not in the exemption from work of the sabbath— that is, of the seventh day — that the celebration of this solemnity is to consist, that Joshua the Son of Nun, at the time that he was reducing the city Jericho by war, stated that he had received from God a precept to order the People that priests should carry the ark of the testament of God seven days, making the circuit of the city; and thus, when the seventh day's circuit had been performed, the walls of the city would spontaneously fall. Joshua 6:1-20 Which was so done; and when the space of the seventh day was finished, just as was predicted, down fell the walls of the city. Whence it is manifestly shown, that in the number of the seven days there intervened a sabbath-day. For seven days, whencesoever they may have commenced, must necessarily include within them a sabbath-day; on which day not only must the priests have worked, but the city must have been made a prey by the edge of the sword by all the people of Israel. Nor is it doubtful that they wrought servile work, when, in obedience to God's precept, they drove the preys of war. For in the times of the Maccabees, too, they did bravely in fighting on the sabbaths, and routed their foreign foes, and recalled the law of their fathers to the primitive style of life by fighting on the sabbaths. Nor should I think it was any other law which they thus vindicated, than the one in which they remembered the existence of the prescript touching the day of the sabbaths.
    Whence it is manifest that the force of such precepts was temporary, and respected the necessity of present circumstances; and that it was not with a view to its observance in perpetuity that God formerly gave them such a law.
    Chapter 5. Of Sacrifices.

    So, again, we show that sacrifices of earthly oblations and of spiritual sacrifices were predicted; and, moreover, that from the beginning the earthly were foreshown, in the person of Cain, to be those of the elder son, that is, of Israel; and the opposite sacrifices demonstrated to be those of the younger son, Abel, that is, of our people. For the elder, Cain, offered gifts to God from the fruit of the earth; but the younger son, Abel, from the fruit of his ewes. God had respect unto Abel, and unto his gifts; but unto Cain and unto his gifts He had not respect. And God said to Cain, Why is your countenance fallen? Have you not — if you offer indeed aright, but do not divide aright — sinned? Hold your peace. For unto you shall your conversion be and he shall lord it over you. And then Cain said to Abel his brother, Let us go into the field: and he went away with him there, and he slew him. And then God said to Cain, Where is Abel your brother? And he said, I know not: am I my brother's keeper? To whom God said, The voice of the blood of your brother cries forth unto me from the earth. Wherefore cursed is the earth, which has opened her mouth to receive the blood of your brother. Groaning and trembling shall you be upon the earth, and every one who shall have found you shall slay you. From this proceeding we gather that the twofold sacrifices of the peoples were even from the very beginning foreshown. In short, when the sacerdotal law was being drawn up, through Moses, in Leviticus, we find it prescribed to the people of Israel that sacrifices should in no other place be offered to God than in the land of promise; which the Lord God was about to give to the people Israel and to their brethren, in order that, on Israel's introduction there, there should there be celebrated sacrifices and holocausts, as well for sins as for souls; and nowhere else but in the holy land. Why, accordingly, does the Spirit afterwards predict, through the prophets, that it should come to pass that in every place and in every land there should be offered sacrifices to God? As He says through the angel Malachi, one of the twelve prophets: I will not receive sacrifice from your hands; for from the rising sun unto the setting my Name has been made famous among all the nations, says the Lord Almighty: and in every place they offer clean sacrifices to my Name. Again, in the Psalms, David says: Bring to God, you countries of the nations — undoubtedly because unto every land the preaching of the apostles had to go out — bring to God fame and honour; bring to God the sacrifices of His name: take up victims and enter into His courts. For that it is not by earthly sacrifices, but by spiritual, that offering is to be made to God, we thus read, as it is written, An heart contribulate and humbled is a victim for God; and elsewhere, Sacrifice to God a sacrifice of praise, and render to the Highest your vows. Thus, accordingly, the spiritual sacrifices of praise are pointed to, and an heart contribulate is demonstrated an acceptable sacrifice to God. And thus, as carnal sacrifices are understood to be reprobated — of which Isaiah withal speaks, saying, To what end is the multitude of your sacrifices to me? Says the Lord Isaiah 1:11 — so spiritual sacrifices are predicted as accepted, as the prophets announce. For, even if you shall have brought me, He says, the finest wheat flour, it is a vain supplicatory gift: a thing execrable to me; and again He says, Your holocausts and sacrifices, and the fat of goats, and blood of bulls, I will not, not even if you come to be seen by me: for who has required these things from your hands? for from the rising sun unto the setting, my Name has been made famous among all the nations, says the Lord. But of the spiritual sacrifices He adds, saying, And in every place they offer clean sacrifices to my Name, says the Lord.
    Chapter 6. Of the Abolition and the Abolisher of the Old Law.

    Therefore, since it is manifest that a sabbath temporal was shown, and a sabbath eternal foretold; a circumcision carnal foretold, and a circumcision spiritual pre-indicated; a law temporal and a law eternal formally declared; sacrifices carnal and sacrifices spiritual foreshown; it follows that, after all these precepts had been given carnally, in time preceding, to the people Israel, there was to supervene a time whereat the precepts of the ancient Law and of the old ceremonies would cease, and the promise of the new law, and the recognition of spiritual sacrifices, and the promise of the New Testament, supervene; while the light from on high would beam upon us who were sitting in darkness, and were being detained in the shadow of death. And so there is incumbent on us a necessity 1 Corinthians 9:16 binding us, since we have premised that a new law was predicted by the prophets, and that not such as had been already given to their fathers at the time when He led them forth from the land of Egypt, to show and prove, on the one hand, that that old Law has ceased, and on the other, that the promised new law is now in operation.
    And, indeed, first we must inquire whether there be expected a giver of the new law, and an heir of the new testament, and a priest of the new sacrifices, and a purger of the new circumcision, and an observer of the eternal sabbath, to suppress the old law, and institute the new testament, and offer the new sacrifices, and repress the ancient ceremonies, and suppress the old circumcision together with its own sabbath, and announce the new kingdom which is not corruptible. Inquire, I say, we must, whether this giver of the new law, observer of the spiritual sabbath, priest of the eternal sacrifices, eternal ruler of the eternal kingdom, be come or no: that, if he is already come, service may have to be rendered him; if he is not yet come, he may have to be awaited, until by his advent it be manifest that the old Law's precepts are suppressed, and that the beginnings of the new law ought to arise. And, primarily, we must lay it down that the ancient Law and the prophets could not have ceased, unless He had come who was constantly announced, through the same Law and through the same prophets, as to come.
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0308.htm

    It appears your understanding is what was commonly held among Christians in the late 100's and early 200's.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

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    The article says:"so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary" Scripture determines that to be a LIE.

    Isa 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand.
    Isa 66:23 “And it shall be that from New Moon to New Moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה.
    Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me1. For their worm shall not die, and their fire not be quenched. And they shall be repulsive to all flesh!” Footnote: 1See 24:6, 34:2-3, Ps. 110:6, Jer. 25:33.

    OOPS!
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



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    Quote Originally Posted by CaryC View Post
    Hey 9er,

    You might be interested in this, some quotes from Tertullian circa late 100's early 200's AD:



    Taken from "The Apology" chapter 39 sentences 7, 14, 16.

    http://www.tertullian.org/anf/anf03/anf03-05.htm#39_7
    Pretty good quotes but references to "consanguinity", "eructations", and "ablution"? Your vocabulary is much better than mine!

    Quote Originally Posted by CaryC View Post
    It appears your understanding is what was commonly held among Christians in the late 100's and early 200's.
    Yes, it's pretty amazing that people even back then actually believed what Scripture said:

    Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
    Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
    It is ludicrous to try to make these verses say that Sabbath observance was still required. The things listed in verse 16, including observance of festivals and Sabbaths, are called a "shadow" and not the "substance". And Hebrews makes it clear that those shadows have ended and have been replaced by Christ, who is the substance.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty9er View Post
    It is ludicrous to try to make these verses say that Sabbath observance was still required. The things listed in verse 16, including observance of festivals and Sabbaths, are called a "shadow" and not the "substance". And Hebrews makes it clear that those shadows have ended and have been replaced by Christ, who is the substance.
    What is ludicrous is to ignore context and fail to identify this certain "man" being referenced:

    Colossians 2 in CONTEXT:
    A quick look at using Col 2:16 as a ‘proof’ text against keeping Sabbath, feast days, or being able to now eat rats or pigs, etc. It’s time to put that one out to pasture. Usually, folks don’t even try that verse anymore after seeing it says opposite of what they think. Many of you also have to confront this issue…people pulling one verse completely out of its context and say “ah-ha! there it is! we do not have to obey!” Oddly, that verse IN CONTEXT is their ruin! Let’s have a careful, objective look at these words IN CONTEXT…



    Col 2:4 And this I say, lest “ANY MAN” should “beguile you with enticing words.”


    Col 2:8 Beware lest “ANY MAN” “spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men”, after the “rudiments of the world”, and “not after Messiah”.


    Col 2:18 Let “NO MAN” “beguile you” of “your reward” in a voluntary humility and “worshipping of angels”, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, “vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind”,


    Col 2:22 … after the “commandments and DOCTRINES OF MEN?


    Col 2:16-17 Let “NO MAN” therefore “judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths… – which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah”.


    Let’s identify this ‘MAN’ who is NOT to judge us…a beguiler, a spoiler through philosophy, vainly deceitful, a man after the TRADITIONS OF MEN, puffed up in the FLESH, not after Messiah, rudiments of the world, AFTER THE COMMANMENTS AND DOCTRINES OF MEN! Hmmmm…chew on that.

    My gosh, how clear can it be? This ‘man’ IS NOT part of the body of Messiah, but an outsider still in paganism, who was judging the body of believers for KEEPING those things! To continue to post to the contrary proves you do not want context, proves you do not want truth, and proves you have an agenda against obeying. His Sabbath, His feast days, His new moons, and eating clean food are His Word; NOT traditions of men. They were a GIVEN in those days, and are still alive and well for anyone who desire covenant with YHUH. Now, do you side with YHUH, or do you side with this ‘MAN’, this outsider, being spoken of? Who do you identify with? It’s time to choose! If you are still bent on disobeying, then you will have to find another verse to make you feel better about your sin.


    That one is out to pasture.


    That "man" didn't get the message:

    Mar 2:27 And He said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



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    Luk 23:55 And the women who had come with Him from Galil followed after, and saw the tomb and how His body was laid.
    Luk 23:56 And having returned, they prepared spices and perfumes. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the command.
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



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