Is trump being used of God to bless america?

[Sherree]

“For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.”Matthew 24:5 (KJV)

Ya know, db, I have often wondered if the translation could also read...."I am OF Christ", instead. I haven't heard of too many people running around claiming that they are Christ, but we hear of it every day where people claim to be of Christ, but are liars deceiving many.

[Forty9er]

Unfortunate we can't see each other's faces for nuance of meaning, 49r. I meant to insert some humor while making my point that I'd had enough of diversions from the fact God has blessed us, and apologize if you took offense.

Thanks for your apology and explanation. We really need to work at not letting disagreements become personal. As I recall, we were able to maintain that standard in our previous discussions and that is what I hope we can continue to do. With regard to Wiles, I really didn't want the discussion to center around him but about what his guest had said. So now looking back I can see that I should have left him out of the discussion entirely.

Interesting stuff dmatic. Thank you, it does bear watching and praying, eh? The Cyrus parallels are real, and without going woo-woo over it, (in light of PG's excellent post showing definitively these matters are firmly under the administrations of God, thank you), one might actually consider the received definitions of "trump". All the more reason we need be in concerted prayer for the man. The Christian Zionists who absolutely must have a "pre-trib rapture" to validate their version of dispensationalism eat this stuff up, the hard-core Amalgamation (because it is not really "replacement"), with the Amillienialists, can allegorize or spiritualize most anything and consider this dangerous to objectionable, and; those of us who simply receive the Word as literally truth on face value absent all the gyrations, at II Thess. 2, that the great Apostasy AND the Man of Sin being revealed to the Church absolutely must occur prior to The Return, with that the Idol Shepherd will be received by Israel prior to national repentance and fully two-thirds of them wiped out in judgment (Zechariah) prior to The Return, know a physical Third Temple, (if built), will be where Antichrist declares himself God.

First, I have to say emphatically that I am no Christian Zionist if the definition of that term is someone like John Hagee. I think that TV preachers like John Hagee are teaching heretical doctrines, especially with regard to the Jews and Israel. So don't include me in that camp just because I believe what Scripture teaches, that God is in the process of returning Israel (the Jews) to the land that He gave them and when Christ returns "all Israel" (or those who are left alive) will be saved. And no, dispensationalism wasn't taught with the purpose of creating the modern state of Israel as I believe Wiles says.

I think if you want to make a parallel to Cyrus the appropriate person would be Lord Balfour, not Donald Trump. But actually this attempt to make a Cyrus out of Trump is scary. Scripture contains prophecy regarding Cyrus. Where is the prophecy regarding Trump (can I suggest that you not look through Rick Wiles prophecies to try to find one!). But here is another issue from that article that dmatic posted:

Rabbi Weiss stressed that Trump’s goals will come to fruition only if they are geared towards rebuilding the Jewish Temple.
...

“Trump’s political agenda can only succeed if it is focused on building the Third Temple on the place that God chose: the Temple Mount. He must not advance any two-state solution or this will lead to his downfall.”

Should any Christian be advocating the building of the Third Temple when Scripture tells us "there is no longer any offering for sin"?

[Forty9er]

Ya know, db, I have often wondered if the translation could also read...."I am OF Christ", instead. I haven't heard of too many people running around claiming that they are Christ, but we hear of it every day where people claim to be of Christ, but are liars deceiving many.

Good point Sherree. Here is another verse:

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, See, here is Christ; or, see, he is there; believe him not:

Here is the parallel I would draw between that verse regarding the end times and the conditions in Israel during Christ's ministry. During the first century people in Israel were desperate to find "a savior" to save them from the Romans, but not "The Savior" to save them from their sins. And I think today it is the same. People are desperate to find someone like Christ (shall we say a physical savior) to change the plight that the country and world is in but they are not desperate to find the true Christ who would become their spiritual Savior.

[Sherree]

Here is the parallel I would draw between that verse regarding the end times and the conditions in Israel during Christ's ministry. During the first century people in Israel were desperate to find "a savior" to save them from the Romans, but not "The Savior" to save them from their sins. And I think today it is the same. People are desperate to find someone like Christ (shall we say a physical savior) to change the plight that the country and world is in but they are not desperate to find the true Christ who would become their spiritual Savior.

That is a great companion verse! Absolutely, people are desperately trying to find a physical savior ( a man), but are missing the true "Messiah" the only one who can bring salvation to each individual and also salvation to our nation.

[Blacksprucy]

That is a great companion verse! Absolutely, people are desperately trying to find a physical savior ( a man), but are missing the true "Messiah" the only one who can bring salvation to each individual and also salvation to our nation.

They are seeking a physical savior to save their golden calf branded "USA".

[CaryC]

On a person note, for myself and other Christians I don't see the need for a Third Temple. However, if a literal understanding is meant in II Thess. 2: 4 then there will be one built. Even as one stood for some 40 years after Christ's death. It will be exciting to see, in that we will know, that we know, the end is near.

I know other people interpret that verse in other ways, but when a Jewish Rabbi says a Jewish Temple, he means a literal building.

My time table may be off, but I think some people were comparing Trump to Cyrus before he was elected, or maybe shortly after. Which is weird. I personally don't see the comparison, like you Balfour, or maybe ......was it Clinton who originally declared the embassy move, which was delayed every 6 months since.

Trump did announce the move finally, which was the right thing to do, IMHO, but he hasn't said anything about building, or supporting building a Third Temple. As far as I know. I read about the announcement of the coin a couple of weeks ago, but not sure if it will be like a commemorative type thing, or will be a usable coin on the street.

There also seems to be an anti-sematic move afoot in the European countries, which may push more Jews towards their homeland. Which will leave Europeans, and Muslims and they don't mix, just like the 10 toes of iron, and clay.

And the possible start of the Magog war. Lot's of interesting stuff happening. What part Trump will play remains to be seen.

I also get the impression that the Antichrist will give the appearance of fixing things, thus the universal support. So, I don't think it will be some computer hacker guy living in his mothers basement, but a national/international figure, who right now may be working behind the scenes. Pure speculation on my part, and I know it.

[Trasael Adnepos]

I certainly do not advocate for it, 49r, but if God will it shall be, and believe the abomination which causes desolation standing in the temple of God proclaiming himself to be God at very least has a dual application to the final irredeemable absolute possession of the Antichrist and those who will bow down and worship him as god.

As for Balfour, I believe evidence proves he was way on the demonic side, as in séances in his home etc., but then those who advocate he was an instrument of God in the Declaration have to brush that aside as easily as they have consistently set (failed and revised) end-time timetables from the birth of the modern nation-state UNder the star of Moloch by the fully antichrist United Nations. Either way, as you observed, God allows it all and uses it to accomplish His purposes, ultimately. I do believe it is a prophetic sign of our times, and would never begrudge those their homeland, self-determination.

If you're curious, I believe the LORD clearly warned me of deception from that quarter some 35 years past, in that Jerusalem is indeed a cup of trembling to the nations in our day, in JUDGMENT. I always ask those stuck on undying allegiance to socialist, secular, unrepentant, unregenerate nation-state, whether that blind allegiance extends to when "Israel" makes peace through, then embraces the Idol Shepherd as false messiah, and turns on Christians with a blood-lust. Their pat answer, of course, is, "It doesn't matter, we'll be gone", which is my main issue with the pre-trib doctrine, because it engenders general deception concerning Antichrist.

Then there is of course the constant misuse of Gen. 12:2(b) to threaten everyone who isn't aboard their program with "cursing", when even a cursory, elementary reading of Galatians chapters 3 and 4 finds that blessing unmistakably quoted and applied directly to the Church and individual Christians, best summed with "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise", that passage again referencing directly the Genesis promises.

I do of course believe it would be foolish to rule out a repentant and restored Nation which joins the Church and comes the only Way, but Zechariah states with specificity that is when Christ touches down. Where the Christian Zionists begin to stammer and equivocate most often, is when I ask them to read Is. 11, ask them what Age of the earth is the general subject matter, (though there is a great span of time covered, and all of history "leads up" to that Age, then stop them cold at verse 11 with the following questions:

Is the Exodus the first time? (self-evident). Does God say there will be 3 times? 1 and 1/4, 1 and 2/3, or anything but two times? Please read on to v. 15.

Has the tongue of the Egyptian Sea dried up, or the seven branches of the Euphrates gone dry, (yes, I know they made a big deal of the dams years ago).?

"Well, you know, it's the beginning..."

No, all of human history is "the beginning", and Is. 11 begins with the Advent of Christ.

Oh, well, now we opened a can of worms...

But I thought you should know we are not so far apart as you may imagine, and, (as the starving Missionary stated in India), "Who can pass the opportunity to barbecue such delicious sacred cows?"

[Pastor Guest]

I certainly do not advocate for it, 49r, but if God will it shall be, and believe the abomination which causes desolation standing in the temple of God proclaiming himself to be God at very least has a dual application to the final irredeemable absolute possession of the Antichrist and those who will bow down and worship him as god.

While I believe an actual temple building will probably be constructed, there is the possibility it might not.

2 Thessalonians 2

3 Let no man deceive you by any
means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away
first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition.

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself
above all that is called God, or that is
worshipped; so that he as God sitteth
in the temple of God, shewing himself
that he is God.

And:

1 Corinthians 3:

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple
of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth
in you?

This is not to say that a person could be saved and then deceived by the beast and the false prophet, because that is not possible.

Matthew 24

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and
false prophets, and shall shew great signs
and wonders; insomuch that, if it were
possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It is not possible for the elect to be deceived by the beast because the believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Since the believer knows and is indwelt by the Truth (Jesus), they will not be deceived by the lie (the beast).

However, since man is to be the temple of God, those who know not Christ are not what they were created to be. Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, who resides in every believer, the unbeliever has a spiritual void that will be filled by Satan. There is no such thing as a spiritual vacuum. In this way the spirit of anti-Christ can enter the unbeliever (who was created to be the temple of God, but is not because of unbelief) and show himself to the unbeliever as God. The lost person, who knows not Christ, will then believe the lie because he knows not the Truth.

[ByGraceAlone]

Ya know, db, I have often wondered if the translation could also read...."I am OF Christ", instead. I haven't heard of too many people running around claiming that they are Christ, but we hear of it every day where people claim to be of Christ, but are liars deceiving many.

The word "Christ" means anointed. There are plenty of people going around claiming to have the "anointing" of Christ, which is essentially claiming to be Christ in flesh.

[ByGraceAlone]

On a person note, for myself and other Christians I don't see the need for a Third Temple. However, if a literal understanding is meant in II Thess. 2: 4 then there will be one built. Even as one stood for some 40 years after Christ's death. It will be exciting to see, in that we will know, that we know, the end is near.

I know other people interpret that verse in other ways, but when a Jewish Rabbi says a Jewish Temple, he means a literal building.

My time table may be off, but I think some people were comparing Trump to Cyrus before he was elected, or maybe shortly after. Which is weird. I personally don't see the comparison, like you Balfour, or maybe ......was it Clinton who originally declared the embassy move, which was delayed every 6 months since.

Trump did announce the move finally, which was the right thing to do, IMHO, but he hasn't said anything about building, or supporting building a Third Temple. As far as I know. I read about the announcement of the coin a couple of weeks ago, but not sure if it will be like a commemorative type thing, or will be a usable coin on the street.

There also seems to be an anti-sematic move afoot in the European countries, which may push more Jews towards their homeland. Which will leave Europeans, and Muslims and they don't mix, just like the 10 toes of iron, and clay.

And the possible start of the Magog war. Lot's of interesting stuff happening. What part Trump will play remains to be seen.

I also get the impression that the Antichrist will give the appearance of fixing things, thus the universal support. So, I don't think it will be some computer hacker guy living in his mothers basement, but a national/international figure, who right now may be working behind the scenes. Pure speculation on my part, and I know it.

Have you ever considered the "historicist" perspective on eschatology? It's what most of the reformers believed to be true for centuries when Christianity was its strongest on the earth.

Now it isn't even talked about, everything is futurism because that's a convenient blind for the actual antichrist, who has been active and at work for 1,700 years, to operate from behind.