Are the Spiritual gifts still at work today? Hear what God says in the matter.

[Sherree]

Yes, it's like we have a garden plot with all these beautiful flowers. We look at one corner and see the fragrant roses and have a story to tell about how those roses commemorate a leg of our journey with the Lord. Then we look at another corner and see the bright yellow daffodils and there is another story, maybe about the Holy Spirit's correction of something in our life not good for us and the victory we can now celebrate. Oh look, there's those purple and white pansies with their cheerful faces, reminding me of when I was shown MERCY and GRACE, that I didn't deserve.

Praise be to our Heavenly Father who gives us these beautiful gardens to look back on.....we hold these treasures in our hearts, sometimes we can celebrate them with others and sometimes we have to keep it to ourselves

Laura, your comparison to a beautiful garden was wonderful! Thank you!

[Sherree]

Ephesians 4

8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended
up on high, he led captivity captive, and
gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but
that he also descended first into the lower
parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that
ascended up far above all heavens, that he
might fill all things)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some,
prophets; and some, evangelists; and some,
pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the
work of the ministry, for the edifying of the
body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of
the stature of the fulness of Christ:



The gifts of the Spirit are given "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:".

They are given "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:".

This work of God will not be completed until Jesus returns. The gifts of the Spirit will continue to be given to believers until then.

It is a shame and a tragedy that many Christians refuse to use the gifts of the Spirit as God intends.

Absolutely, Pastor. Well said.

[ByGraceAlone]

Yes, in fact I did, watch the vid.

So now I have a question for you.

But first can I lay some historical background?

Out of convenience let's say the 27 books of the New Testament were finished being written in roughly 100 AD.

And we know that the way things are today, everyone owning 2-3 Bibles, some churches even provide Bibles in the pews, was not the way it was in 100 AD. What we do know is that most major cites, which would have the larger congregations (they didn't have church buildings back then) like Rome, Carthage, Alexandria, Ephesus, etc. all had copies of the 27 books of the NT by about 150 AD. Not very many individuals, other than some rich people who could afford it because it was very costly to have anything put in book form.

And we also know that by 150 AD a lot of the smaller cities, had copies of the 4 Gospels, but that was it, not all 27. Given more time, more copies became available.

One also has to consider that at this time being a Christian in the Roman Empire was a crime. The severity of enforcement depended on location. In Rome it was very bad, not so much in Ephesus.

Then when in 312 Constantine made Christianity an acceptable religion, and even more so in 391 Christianity was made the state religion, I'm sure a diligent effort was made to make more copies of the 27 books. There are today some 5000 manuscripts, plus pieces, it was a good work, and we all should appreciate it.

In 412 the Council at Carthage sent a letter to the Council at Constantinople requesting a copy of the 27 (the number they used) books of the Received Text (Textus Receptus). So during this time there was a lot copying going on.

Jerome did a translation called the Latin Vulgate in roughly 400, it was commissioned in 382. Which was used by the RCC up through 1979.

There is a catch in all this, especially after 400 AD, in that the 27 books of the NT wasn't available to the common person sitting on a pew.

A shift in that area, sort of began in the 1450's with the printing press. And even more so a bit earlier in the late 1300's with Wycliff's Translations. Still unavailable to the common man.

With that as the historical background, BTW if you want to challenge that, that's ok.

Now to my question:

The gifts of Spirit (the Spiritual gifts as you stated) are listed/discussed in 3 places: Romans 12, I Corinthians 12, and 14, and Ephesians 4.

And you are saying that not only do those gifts no longer exist, but those verses no longer apply to any Christian, or group of Christians, no longer are they the Sword able to divide the soul, and spirit, no longer are those verses eternal, since roughly 100 AD?

If you can explain away my clear presentation on the passage of 1 Corinthians 13, do so. Otherwise, you have no standing against the word of God.

[Sherree]

BGA, Scripture does not contradict itself. In light of what you believe Scripture to be proving, how does your interpretation line up with the Scripture that Pastor Guest quoted? Also, the experiences of us here that prove those gifts are still in operation?

Sometimes a clear presentation becomes a bit cloudy, once it's held up to the rest of Scripture.

[LittleFish]

Spiritual gifts are named in four main passages in the epistles. Paul says the most on it in I Corinthians, and most of that in chapters 12-13.

Earlier in chapter 12, Paul explains that the body of Christ is comprised of different parts with specific roles (gifts). In the selected text, he begins with listing the gifts in order:

“And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.”

That’s the basis for the ordering of gifts in the table here. Those gifts Paul later mentions in the passage are in the order he mentions them but not numbered.


Note that the gifts that are done away with are revelatory. Once the entire revelation of the Word of God is received, there will be no more need of these. Yes, this includes the gift of prophecy, one of the ‘greater gifts’ Paul urged people to seek in his day (12:31). It was greatly needed then but would not always be.

The other gifts – apostles, teachers, miracles, healing, etc. – are not done away. These gifts are still integral to making disciples of all men and shepherding the flock. The apostle (pastor, minister, preacher) spreads the Word, builds the kingdom, and shepherds the flock. Teachers, well, teach those wanting to know more and better understand the Word. There will be miracles and healing within the body to defeat the satan’s attempt to weaken us by attacking our physical finitude. Helps and administration, giving, and suffering under persecution remain, too, as do the many gifts mentioned elsewhere in the epistles.

It may be that the revelatory gifts were done away with once the written Revelation was complete is because these are the most likely to be abused:

• Look at all the ‘prophecies’ on the internet that conflict with one another, most of which fall flat. Much more probably takes place in churches promoting the gift. It is a way to get a following and gather attention to self more often than it is serving the church. Many will not dare question a ‘prophet’ even after a stated ‘prophecy’ (ordozen, or hundred) has failed. This is not of God.
  
• The modern-day ‘word of knowledge’ is used to manipulate and fundraise in more cases than not in a public setting. However, a believer with the gift of exhortation often delivers a personal Word from the Lord God that serves to counsel and otherwise bless the one to whom he or she is ministering. The two (knowledge and exhortation) are easily confused with one another; only the latter remains.
  
• What happens in the name of ‘tongues’ in many churches today is a disgrace that Paul never saw in his day. Some go so far as to say the gift of tongues, and none other, is the evidence of full salvation with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If this were the case – if the indwelling of the Holy Spirit must be accompanied by the gift of tongues – Paul probably would have taught it that way and urged everyone to diligently seek it first, even before that of an apostle.
  

Whether or not one can conclusively prove that Paul meant to say these three gifts would be done away at the completion of the Scriptures, two things we cannot deny are that he mentioned them specifically in the ‘doing away’ context for some reason and these gifts are heavily abused today.

Only one never fails: Love. God is Love. God never fails, or ends.

That’s my 2 cents’ worth, as they say. Not looking to get into an ongoing argument, as others here have said. Just giving my 2 cents.

[CaryC]

If you can explain away my clear presentation on the passage of 1 Corinthians 13, do so. Otherwise, you have no standing against the word of God.

You might want to rephrase that to: no standing against the word of God as you understand it.

The CONTEXT and SUBJECT of I Corinthians 13 is love, not the Word of God.

What can this verse be referring to?

1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

According to you, it is the 27 books of the NT, as the perfect, and the "in part" is the gifts of the Spirit. Having been written in 56 AD Paul would of had to know that in a future date, no more books of the Bible would be written, thus perfection would of come, and the gifts ended. So why didn't he just say that?

Could it be "the perfect" that he was referring to was Jesus Christ, the perfect one, with perfect love. Since directly after finishing his discourse on the Gifts of the Spirit he goes into the return of Christ, Chapter 15.

And that now with Romans 12 in mind, the place of the other listing of the Gifts of the Spirit, Paul says,

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

To instead be conformed into the Image of Christ.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Conformity to that perfect image of Christ in our lives

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, (mirror) darkly;

It should also be noted that it is only the hearers of the word, and not doers who look into the mirror of the word, and forget what they look like. The doers of the word look into the mirror and see a dark image of Christ. As you noted out of James, as a cross reference to I Cor. 13.

How long shall those who look into a mirror and see a dark image of Christ?

I Co 13: 12

but then (when the perfect comes) face to face:

When we shall behold Him face to face we shall be as He is, perfect in love. When we shall see Him there will be no need for prophecy, tongues, nor knowledge.

1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:( a mirror darkly) but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (face to face)

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The word perfect is used in 39 verses in the NT. None of which refer to the Bible being complete. However, all of which refer to our conformity into the image of Christ.

Even in II Timothy it's not the Word that is perfect, but rather the man:

2Ti_3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

And is pointed at an individual, and not the body of Christ, where the gifts are needed.

Note Paul's thoughts about himself:

Php_3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

A final note: Just because there are abuses of the gifts of the Spirit, and may even be used in an imitation fashion by the dark side, doesn't mean they don't exist. Also, just because a group of people babble and say it is the gift of Spirit, doesn't mean that is the way it was done in 56 AD.

Cross reference:

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not:

With:

Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Act 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Act 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Is that how you see, the gifts of tongues exercised today by those that claim to have it?

One last item:

If you truly believe that the gifts of the Spirit are no longer in use, including those in Eph 4, and you have to include those, because no where in scripture is there any delineation between one gift being done away, and another not, then you violated your own doctrine, and beliefs.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Because in your video you claimed to want to teach us what was right.

If it was not through the gift of the Spirit as a teacher, you did it in the flesh.

[Sherree]

In case we forget.....Romans 11:29, "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance". The word repentance here also means, irrevocable. I would assume that also mean the gifts that have been given to the Body of Christ, since no where in Scripture does it say other wise.

[Forty9er]

I am not going say that I believe that the miraculous gifts of the Spirit have ended today because I don't believe that there is substantial support in Scripture for that claim. But that doesn't mean that there isn't any support for that view or for the view that although the miraculous gifts may not have ended entirely, they may have been drastically reduced. Eph 4:11 has been quoted to support the view that all of the gifts continue today:

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

But is it true that Apostles, like the 12, 13, or 14 that are mentioned in Scripture, with their power and authority, exist today? I know that is what the RCC believes at least in regard to the Pope, and that may be what some Protestant demonations believe, but does that make it true? From what we see in Scripture Apostles were chosen directly by Christ, with the possible exceptions of Matthias and Barnabus. And the Apostles appear to have been given authority over unclean spirits and with the ability to heal every disease (Mat 10:1). Another requirement for an Apostle seems to be that they had personally seen the resurrected Christ.

So does that kind of Apostle exist today? If not, why not? And if not, could it be that the same reason that we don't have that kind of Apostle today could be justification to believe that some of the other gifts don't exist today as well?

If someone wants to make the argument that the "gift" of apostle is different than the Apostles that Christ chose, is there any proof that is true?

And there is some support from the early church fathers to believe that in the first few centuries after Christ there was a reduction in some of the gifts of the Spirit seen in the church. Around 230 AD Origen reported a decline in signs and wonders:

Moreover the Holy Spirit gave signs of His presence at the beginning of Christ's ministry, and after His ascension He gave still more; but since that time these signs have diminished, although there are still traces of His presence in a few who have had their souls purified by the Gospel

And today we seem to have an abundance of "prophets", many of which predict the future, but I have yet to find even one who has consistently and accurately predicted future events. I know that some people believe that prophets today are only giving out God's truth (which is generally not something found in Scripture) and not "foretelling" the future and that foretelling is not a characteristic of the NT prophet. But the prophet Agabus in Acts 21 accurately predicted Paul's arrest in Jerusalem. If a NT prophet never predicts the future, how can their message be validated as coming from God? Preachers and teachers can be validated by Scripture but that isn't generally true for prophets.

Another one of the miraculous gifts of the Spirit is the gift of miracles. Does anyone know of someone with this gift? Have they performed just one miracle or several? I wouldn't deny that God could give that gift to someone today and that God only enabled them to perform just one miracle but Scripture does seem to say it is the gift of miracles, plural. I have no doubt that God today does perform miracles. I know that is true in my own life. But in my entire life I have not known of anyone with that gift.

Again, I am not saying that anyone who believes that all of the gifts of the Spirit are present and evident today is wrong, only that it is possible to have a different view based on a different interpretation of Scripture and, to a lesser degree, on what seems to be evident today.

[tygerkittn]

Spiritual gifts are named in four main passages in the epistles. Paul says the most on it in I Corinthians, and most of that in chapters 12-13.

Earlier in chapter 12, Paul explains that the body of Christ is comprised of different parts with specific roles (gifts). In the selected text, he begins with listing the gifts in order:

“And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.”

That’s the basis for the ordering of gifts in the table here. Those gifts Paul later mentions in the passage are in the order he mentions them but not numbered.


Note that the gifts that are done away with are revelatory. Once the entire revelation of the Word of God is received, there will be no more need of these. Yes, this includes the gift of prophecy, one of the ‘greater gifts’ Paul urged people to seek in his day (12:31). It was greatly needed then but would not always be.

The other gifts – apostles, teachers, miracles, healing, etc. – are not done away. These gifts are still integral to making disciples of all men and shepherding the flock. The apostle (pastor, minister, preacher) spreads the Word, builds the kingdom, and shepherds the flock. Teachers, well, teach those wanting to know more and better understand the Word. There will be miracles and healing within the body to defeat the satan’s attempt to weaken us by attacking our physical finitude. Helps and administration, giving, and suffering under persecution remain, too, as do the many gifts mentioned elsewhere in the epistles.

It may be that the revelatory gifts were done away with once the written Revelation was complete is because these are the most likely to be abused:

• Look at all the ‘prophecies’ on the internet that conflict with one another, most of which fall flat. Much more probably takes place in churches promoting the gift. It is a way to get a following and gather attention to self more often than it is serving the church. Many will not dare question a ‘prophet’ even after a stated ‘prophecy’ (ordozen, or hundred) has failed. This is not of God.
  
• The modern-day ‘word of knowledge’ is used to manipulate and fundraise in more cases than not in a public setting. However, a believer with the gift of exhortation often delivers a personal Word from the Lord God that serves to counsel and otherwise bless the one to whom he or she is ministering. The two (knowledge and exhortation) are easily confused with one another; only the latter remains.
  
• What happens in the name of ‘tongues’ in many churches today is a disgrace that Paul never saw in his day. Some go so far as to say the gift of tongues, and none other, is the evidence of full salvation with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If this were the case – if the indwelling of the Holy Spirit must be accompanied by the gift of tongues – Paul probably would have taught it that way and urged everyone to diligently seek it first, even before that of an apostle.
  

Whether or not one can conclusively prove that Paul meant to say these three gifts would be done away at the completion of the Scriptures, two things we cannot deny are that he mentioned them specifically in the ‘doing away’ context for some reason and these gifts are heavily abused today.

Only one never fails: Love. God is Love. God never fails, or ends.

That’s my 2 cents’ worth, as they say. Not looking to get into an ongoing argument, as others here have said. Just giving my 2 cents.

I agree completely. There is no need for revelatory gifts for the church as a whole. People may still have personal experiences, aided by the Holy Spirit, (I have!) but if someone comes along and claims to be a prophet who speaks to and for the whole church, then I would go all Berean on him, since everyone who has done that in the last several hundred years was false. We have scripture that is God's word, we each have the Holy Spirit to guide us, where is there a place for a "prophet" in all that?
If anyone disagrees, fine, just give me the name of a true prophet from the last few hundred years or so who predicted something that happened or revealed additional scriptures that were truly from God, and I will rethink my stance. Meanwhile, read "Strange Fire" by John MacArthur.

[CaryC]

Hey 9er,

I certainly can't disagree with you, in that we don't see those gifts in operation like we read about. More in a moment.

But to blatantly describe those gifts as gone forever, I have a problem with, especially when someone tries to make scripture jump through hoops. Since God gives those gifts as He sees fit.

Now back.

The ones you mention, as referencing those gifts, and there are some more that I have read about. Clement of Rome is one.

I think there may be at least 2 reasons for this, or suspect. 1) they are in operation, just not in the scale, or publicity that we think they should be, meaning more on the individual level. Of which I have personally experienced first hand several of those gifts. Not done by me, but rather to me. 2) not to lay blame on anyone, but it should be noticed that in one village.....Capernaum (?) Jesus said he couldn't do many miracles due to their lack of faith. Again, not laying blame, or guilt tripping anyone, but could there be a general movement away from faith? How many people pray for healing BEFORE they go to the doctor, just saying. Just speculating, and I know it. 3) we don't stand as much in need of them as we use to. My comparison of tongues in Acts 2, may not be as needed because people take classes in different languages. Just saying.

There is another thing. I would never put the 12 Apostles on the same level as any other preacher. They are/where special men. I think we, us, put them on that level, no harm, no foul. Apostle means "sent ones" and that pretty much covers what we mean when we say "Missionary". Barnabas and a couple others were called apostles, and sent ones "Missionary" seems to fit. Just saying.

Just a couple of thoughts, and who knows we may stand in need of those gifts the closer we get to the last days.

I certainly don't have the answers to why the gifts aren't in operation, at least, as we read about them in the Bible. But still think they do exist, and have actually seen some of those listed in Romans 12 in operation in a group of Christians.