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Thread: Are the Spiritual gifts still at work today? Hear what God says in the matter.

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laura19 View Post
    I agree....these are the topics that are pertinent to this thread, for sure
    That's true. Compare what the Bible calls being "slain in the spirit" or "of the Lord" Jere. 25:33, and what is being called "slain in the spirit" in churches today. I don't really think anyone would want to be slain by the Spirit of the Lord. You might also want to check out Rev. 19:20-21. Those who were slain of the Lord were those who worshiped the beast.

    Cary and I have seen the extremes of this "being slain in the spirit". We have seen people who supposedly under the influence of the Spirit that were jerking and shaking so hard and for so long that they actually passed out. People standing around were praising God that his Spirit was moving. Not. That's wasn't "being slain in the spirit".

    In the same church, the pastor was so prone to jerking and shaking violently for a prolonged period of time that resulted in him supposedly "being slain in the spirit". He actually had nurses standing around him in the event he needed them medically. He had a few medical problems. Does that sound like anything the Holy Spirit would do to an elderly sickly man? Not. On occasion, the nurses would really have to treat him. Lord, it makes me sick just thinking about those ventures we had!

  2. #42
    Laura19 is offline Tree of Liberty Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherree View Post
    That's true. Compare what the Bible calls being "slain in the spirit" or "of the Lord" Jere. 25:33, and what is being called "slain in the spirit" in churches today. I don't really think anyone would want to be slain by the Spirit of the Lord. You might also want to check out Rev. 19:20-21. Those who were slain of the Lord were those who worshiped the beast.

    Cary and I have seen the extremes of this "being slain in the spirit". We have seen people who supposedly under the influence of the Spirit that were jerking and shaking so hard and for so long that they actually passed out. People standing around were praising God that his Spirit was moving. Not. That's wasn't "being slain in the spirit".

    In the same church, the pastor was so prone to jerking and shaking violently for a prolonged period of time that resulted in him supposedly "being slain in the spirit". He actually had nurses standing around him in the event he needed them medically. He had a few medical problems. Does that sound like anything the Holy Spirit would do to an elderly sickly man? Not. On occasion, the nurses would really have to treat him. Lord, it makes me sick just thinking about those ventures we had!
    Oh, dear Lord. All this stuff is what paved the way to the nonsense today. It used to be a charismatic/Pentecostal problem, but now the evangelical churches continue with the pitch black sanctuaries and bright flashing lights. There is not a mega church in the Indianapolis area (at least the northern suburbs were I am) that isn't doing the flashing colored lights. More of a concert, a movie theatre. Again, there is still good preaching at some of them, they have just been brainwashed to think this is the only way to get the millennials in. These were once traditional Bible preaching churches. Everything is so weird. I am in the twilight zone.


    THE END ISN'T NEAR.........IT'S HERE

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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laura19 View Post
    Oh, dear Lord. All this stuff is what paved the way to the nonsense today. It used to be a charismatic/Pentecostal problem, but now the evangelical churches continue with the pitch black sanctuaries and bright flashing lights. There is not a mega church in the Indianapolis area (at least the northern suburbs were I am) that isn't doing the flashing colored lights. More of a concert, a movie theatre. Again, there is still good preaching at some of them, they have just been brainwashed to think this is the only way to get the millennials in. These were once traditional Bible preaching churches. Everything is so weird. I am in the twilight zone.
    It's the same in our area, Laura. Believe me when I say that we have looked far and wide for a home church that is bible based. There aren't any that we are aware of at this time. That's why we just get together with other true believers and have a small home fellowship. If we can't get together with a home group for some reason, we just get alone with God, just me and Cary. In the best home fellowship we attended there were several people from differing denominational backgrounds. We were all firm in our salvation beliefs and major doctrine. There were Hebrew Roots, former Catholics, pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, and those who didn't believe in a rapture, Baptists, Assembly of God, and on and on. We all came together in love. No strife, no arguing over bits of non-essential/salvational doctrine, just a love for each other and a deep love for God. The meetings would last for hours, and we always ate a fellowship meal together. We don't attend that fellowship any longer, though. Work schedules became an issue for many, and the fellowship stopped.

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    Laura19 is offline Tree of Liberty Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherree View Post
    It's the same in our area, Laura. Believe me when I say that we have looked far and wide for a home church that is bible based. There aren't any that we are aware of at this time. That's why we just get together with other true believers and have a small home fellowship. If we can't get together with a home group for some reason, we just get alone with God, just me and Cary. In the best home fellowship we attended there were several people from differing denominational backgrounds. We were all firm in our salvation beliefs and major doctrine. There were Hebrew Roots, former Catholics, pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, and those who didn't believe in a rapture, Baptists, Assembly of God, and on and on. We all came together in love. No strife, no arguing over bits of non-essential/salvational doctrine, just a love for each other and a deep love for God. The meetings would last for hours, and we always ate a fellowship meal together. We don't attend that fellowship any longer, though. Work schedules became an issue for many, and the fellowship stopped.
    I actually am in a group similar to what you described, also has some Greek Orthodox. I have learned more about love and agreeing to disagree. All are hungry...that's what's the common thread is. But we don't get together much outside of Wednesday mornings, except for a few of them. Too bad your group broke up!


    THE END ISN'T NEAR.........IT'S HERE

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    Hey Laura,

    Shifting gears slightly in addressing what you see going on in your area concerning evangelical churches.

    The above sermon was delivered at “The Drive” Conference, a “three-day gathering of over 2,400 pastors and church leaders from 25 countries and 700 organizations. The sermon was a supposed “call for believers to re-examine and adapt their approach to communicating the Gospel in a culture where Christians are now the minority.”

    Dr. Stanley informed the attendees that Christ declared that his disciples would “take the message to every nation and tribe and tongue,” and they did; Christians “became a majority world religion.” But then “we began to speak with an authority that I don’t think Jesus intended, and we’ve lost a bit of our message and our leverage.”

    Stanley’s concern was that unless “evangelicals in particular—change their approach in communicating with unchurched people, [the] followers of Christ will lose their voice and forfeit opportunities to share the Gospel.” Stanley complained that we “sometimes keep people from ever coming close to church” because “we have given culture a lot of other things to argue with us about.” According to Stanley, believers must experience a dramatic shift, if “we are to speak into the culture of a world that needs to know there is a God in heaven” who “has invited each person to call Him Father.”
    Here is the link if you want to read the whole, rather long article:

    https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=23421
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

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    This is a rather long article, and paragraphs need separating, I will do some, but you may want to go to the link for easier reading.

    By Kevin ReevesJason had just picked himself up from the floor at the front of the sanctuary and clasped the aged hands of a dear older believer who occasionally came to Sunday service. With a deep reverence, he gently kissed her hands in a gesture of honor.Only a moment before he had been laid out on the carpet. Sister Carmen had come up front at the service’s end to receive healing prayer for eyes suffering from progressive vision deterioration. She was a sweet old lady, a pioneer who talked a lot about getting back to her home in a small community farther north and deeper into the backcountry. In the previous few months, I had spent considerable time with her and her young companion, a fervent Christian and fellow sticks-dweller who had land staked out for homesteading. A loving and self-appointed protector, he guarded Sister Carmen physically in their travels, and she in turn imparted some of the Christian wisdom gleaned over many years of serving the Lord.Jason anointed Sister Carmen with oil, and I prayed for her with my eyes closed. I was completely unprepared for what happened next. Sensing a pulling away by Jason, I cracked open my eyelids just in time to see him, frozen in position with his hands outstretched in ministering prayer, free-fall to the hard floor. So stunned that I failed to react, I watched as Jason hit the thin carpeting with a frighteningly loud thump! He lay there in an attitude of sleep while I stood, jaw unhinged and, a ridiculously helpless look on my face. Getting up a few minutes later, Jason said in hushed tones that he had witnessed Jesus overshadowing Sister Carmen.At the time, I never doubted him, not for a moment. Despite hammering the floor with his head at concussion force, he seemed unhurt, and he was so spiritual about the entire incident that I could barely speak.

    Called to the Carpet
    Anyone becoming involved with an active charismatic ministry knows what being slain in the spirit means by the end of his first week. It is so common in so many Pentecostal and charismatic services that if it fails to happen for a while, folks engaged in this practice begin to wonder why God’s favor has left them. Experiencing the slain phenomenon for the first time at my old church, New Covenant, I have witnessed it probably hundreds of times in the past twelve years.
    But what exactly does being slain in the spirit mean? Traditionally, the term applies to the supposed power of God coming upon a person at a specific time, overpowering his physical strength so that he or she is unable to stand, wherein he or she falls backwards. Sometimes while lying on the floor, the person is totally aware of the experience; at other times individuals claim the power is so intense that all outside influences disappear. Visions are often seen or voices heard during such trance-like states, usually attributed to God. Sometimes the person becomes stuck to the floor, as if held in place by an unseen hand. Some claim to have undergone tremendous spiritual renewal after “falling out,” and still others claim physical healing.During my years (some of which I was an elder) at New Covenant Fellowship, I believed very strongly in the experience, recommended it to others, and marveled at the power of God that could cut a man’s legs out from under him as with an invisible scythe. I have witnessed entire rows of people go down at the wave of a minister’s hand, bodies collapsing in a disheveled heap on chairs or in the aisles. There were times the anointing seemed to come on me, and I was amazed that I’d lay hands on people or merely walk by them, and they would hit the floor with no warning. The first time this happened, I was awed, deeply grateful that God’s presence had manifested in such a powerful way through so inferior a vessel. I determined to walk more closely with Him, wanting to be used again in this way.

    Carnality in Motion
    At first, I was very caught up in the excitement, but in later years some disturbing hints began to surface that everything was not as I had first believed. For one thing, a few in our congregation seemed to swoon at the slightest hint of God’s power in the room. Nancy Bullinger was one such, falling out more times than anyone else I knew. I thought it was because she was so sensitive to the things of the Spirit that God just naturally gravitated toward her to demonstrate His presence. But the closer I watched, the more nagging doubts tugged at me. On more than one occasion after she was supposed to be slain, I saw her sit up and pull her skirt down to a discreet level, the hem of which had risen inappropriately when she was laid on the floor by the catcher. She then lay back down and stayed there for a reasonably long period of time. This bothered me. If she was really under the power of God, as we believed, she would have not have had the strength to move, much less be concerned or aware of her modesty.
    But this brought up another scriptural inconsistency. I Corinthians 14:40 addresses this concern: “Let all things be done decently and in order.” Many of the women who had skirts or dresses fell with legs askew, exposing skin that should have, in decency, been covered. This obvious immodesty even spawned the ministry of covering in some churches, where specific individuals are assigned the duty of draping prepared cloths over the legs of women indecently exposed. One video of a Kenneth Hagin conference showed one of Hagin’s aides going down to the floor under the power, falling into a sitting woman and sliding down the side of her legs—a woman, mind you, who was not his wife. This scenario was repeated in this video numerous times.1Would the same God who commanded His people to do all things “decently and in order” also permit—rather instigate—a spiritual practice that places them in physically compromising positions?

    Catch Me if You Can
    In most services where being slain in the spirit occurs, some members of leadership are routinely assigned the duty of catcher. Their job is to stay behind the person being prayed for and be prepared to catch, should the individual be overcome, and to lay him gently on the floor while God “ministers.” Since the job can be physically demanding, most of the catchers are men, and, since a great percentage of those slain are women, the catchers must come into abrupt physical contact with the woman’s body. While a catcher is often able to lay hold of the woman’s arms or shoulders, that is sometimes impossible. I have seen some women collapse so quickly and in such a free fall that the catcher has no time to consider appropriate contact, regardless of good intentions. Many people have swooned without prayer of any kind and with no warning beforehand. Those present are faced with the split-second choice of letting the person hit the floor with a thud or laying sudden hold on whatever limbs or body parts present themselves and lowering the person gently.
    Sometimes they are not caught at all. There are simply too many at once responding to “the power,” and they fall one on top of another. During the early ’90s, I witnessed this aplenty, a mass of bodies sprawled out in the aisle, men on top of single women or other men’s wives.However you slice it, it comes up way short.I had also been bothered by the very necessity for catchers. If God indeed was knocking His people down, surely He would have the mercy to cushion the fall. In all fairness, I have heard of some who were slain and hit the floor hard, but felt they landed on a bed of feathers. Jason had insisted he was unhurt after his falling out. But that, at best, is subjective. It may or may not have happened the way the person relates the experience. Embarrassment can be a strong silencing factor. Or there may be another reason for that altogether.But people at times do get hurt, sometimes noticeably. I have personally seen at least one young man go down without realizing no catcher was behind him. He plummeted to the floor and cried out in obvious pain, holding his head. I wonder how many would fall down if they knew nobody would be there to lower them gently. A young church elder visiting our congregation from another town stood behind me as I received prayer during a Sunday service. Noticing I was shaking violently and fighting the urge to fall, he said quietly, “It’s okay, I’m here. You won’t get hurt.”Of course, I went down.

    Context or Pretext?
    Where does being slain in the spirit come from? The Bible, presumably. Our favored verse and the one uniformly lifted standard-like by the charismatic community is 2 Chronicles 5:13-14:
    [A]s the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD; So that the priests could not stand to minister by reason of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of God.
    Whenever anyone asked for scriptural proof for the validity of being slain in the spirit, we’d trot out this verse with a less-than-humble attitude. And, on the surface, it does look very similar to the modern practice.There’s just one small difficulty—that’s not the end of the story.Pastor Ted Brooks, in his devastating critique of modern false signs and wonders within the church, I Was a Flakey Preacher,2 notes that we should continue to read down through chapters six and seven of 2 Chronicles, which is a continuation of this same narrative. Solomon addresses the multitudes present, prays to God, and way over in 2 Chronicles 7:1-2, we find a startling revelation:
    Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the LORD filled the house.
    And the priests could not enter into the house of the LORD, because the glory of the LORD had filled the LORD’s house.
    The priests were not able to minister in the house of God in the first place because they were not in the house of God at the time. They had come back out and stood with the large gathering of people after setting up the Ark of the Covenant in the holy place. While charismatic teaching would have us believe that the temple was littered with the bodies of incapacitated priests, the Old Testament simply tells us they could not even enter into the area where God had manifested His glory!A quick reading of 1 Kings 8:10-11 will reveal the same thing. The priests simply were not in the holy place when it was filled with the glory of God.We must look to Jesus. If He was the Word made flesh (John 1:14), then the entire canon of Scripture is summed up in Him. Not once is it even hinted at in Christ’s ministry that being slain in the spirit ever occurred. It is true that when the soldiers came to take Him in the garden of Gethsemane, He spoke and they all “went backward, and fell to the ground” (John 18:6). But two things must be borne in mind here. For one thing, those who came to take Him were unbelievers and subject to His judgment. In this case, being slain in the spirit is not something to be sought after. Second, the mob didn’t just stay on the ground for a while—they immediately got up again. If Christians are going to use this verse to support being slain in the spirit, it must be used in context with nothing withheld. Seen this way, this particular passage does more damage to the notion than provide support.Daniel 10:9 has also been used with some success to validate the practice. Confronted by an angelic being, Daniel said “then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.”But again, one must read on to verses ten and eleven:
    And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands. And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.
    We need to take every word of God at face value. If Daniel says he fell into a deep sleep, we need to accept that without adding to or taking away. If some call this being slain in the spirit, another could as easily say that he simply passed out from fear. The contrasts between this and current practice are rather graphic. When Daniel was touched by the angelic messenger, he received strength to get up. In church when we were “touched by God,” we lost strength. Daniel stood up to face the angel. We lay down so that God could minister. Daniel’s encounter happened through no human agency, and without another witness present. Being slain in the spirit almost always happens under the touch or prayer of an anointed minister, and it is done in public. While it does happen on occasion when a Christian is alone or in prayer, these instances are reportedly rare, and again, subjective. I have seen enough instances, and experienced them myself, to recognize the effects of heightened expectation. The result is often just what the person believed would happen simply because the desire for the experience was so great.

    A Visit With “God’s Bartender”
    This very thing happened to me in my living room with my wife and daughter present. When Rodney Howard-Browne and his new wine, get-drunk anointing exploded onto the charismatic scene in the early ’90s, both being slain in the spirit and holy laughter roared through our congregation, like wildfire. We grasped any teaching we could get on those subjects. With a five-pack of Rodney Howard-Browne videos, I sat down to glean as much as I could from this man. Since I hadn’t the funds to travel to his itinerant services in Anchorage or Juneau, I reckoned this avenue the next best. I recall being disappointed with his preaching. Watching him maneuver through the congregation I couldn’t see what all the fanfare was about. Mostly he told stories, anecdotes peppered with rehearsed jokes. He talked about the power and mocked those who questioned its origin. I struggled through the teaching because I wanted to get to the “glory.” It was something dangled before me the entire time, and my expectations of being touched rose concurrent with my desire for the power. By the end of his teaching, I was primed, sitting on the edge of the couch.
    When he spoke to the congregation and told them to expect the glory to manifest, I looked at Kris, who was combing my daughter Megan’s hair. “I’m going to do it,” I told her gravely, and stood.I closed my eyes and listened to Browne’s voice as he prayed. Suddenly, the decibel level shot through the roof.“There it is!” he shouted, meaning the power of God. I listened as he described the anointing, which was supposed to be the manifest presence of God, as it moved up one side of the building and down the other, knocking people to the floor right and left.When he shouted something like “Take it!” the air was forced out of me in a loud groan, and I fell like a rock back onto the couch. I heard Kris say of Megan, “Kev, you’re scaring her.”But with my hands still raised and feeling “drunk in the spirit,” I laughed, wept, and felt the power go all over my body, quite unconcerned about who was being frightened. It lasted maybe a half-hour, and when I came out of it, I felt refreshed, a bit awed, and wanting more.What happened there? An honest appraisal requires me to admit susceptibility to an emotional surge. It wasn’t the power of God. I’ve seen this same form of manipulation in church services (my former church included), whereby recipients are whipped into a fever pitch of expectation. Of course they will go down! That’s what they’ve been waiting for throughout the entire service. It is only natural that they will respond at the appropriate time to the signals given by the man behind the pulpit.My suspicions finally had an outworking about two years prior to my leaving New Covenant. By that time, having seen so much obvious hype, fakery, and emotionalism, I decided that if God was ever going to knock me down again, then He would be able to do it with my eyes open and my feet planted solidly. Although maintaining a respectful attitude about the entire practice, I was adamant that I would not fall prey to emotional manipulation.I was never again slain in the spirit.

    Whose Anointing?
    It is important to understand that all of what goes on in a slain in the spirit service, regarding the actual manifestation, is attributed to the anointing of God. Depending on which River preacher you ask, this anointing can mean power, the weight of glory, the presence of God, or all of the above. While the Bible does refer to an anointing (I John 2:27), it has in these days of sensual faith been contorted almost beyond recognition. And as with so much of hyper-charismatic experience, it has been placed in the realm of something that needs to be reached for, pursued, or worked up in order to be obtained.
    Many of today’s biggest superstars in the church have redefined the anointing in a way that brings the experience more into agreement with occult forces than biblical truth. Benny Hinn told of his touch received at the grave of Foursquare founder Aimee Semple McPherson.3 The anointing rests on her bones, he believes, and he shook with the power emanating from her long-dead body. The idea is that visiting these certain graves will give a double-dose of anointing. There’s the “Rambo” anointing of one major Laughing Revival evangelist,4 and the “Braveheart” anointing of Toronto Blessing’s Wes Campbell.5 It doesn’t seem to matter that both Rambo and Braveheart are the main characters of two R-rated movies of gore, mayhem, and foul language. Then there’s Carol Arnott’s “Sword of the Lord” anointing, that makes you shake, cry out, and jerk violently. The video of this specific women’s conference was very revealing.6 I watched in amazement as one of the ladies participating behind the pulpit hefted a huge Scottish broadsword and passed it over the gathering to the congregational accompaniment of wails, groans, and manifestations. This was like something out of ancient Celtic wizardry.Another major problem in the error-stricken part of today’s charismatic subculture is that some people, usually big-name ministers like Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, or John Kilpatrick, are looked upon as being more anointed than others. This naturally presupposes the necessity of making a journey to wherever they happen to be ministering in order to be touched by them, and consequently, by God. It is universally recognized by River adherents that the impartation of power is passed from person-to-person via the laying on of hands, and that belief has provoked a virtual scramble among regular church members to get to the preacher that has “it.” It was certainly common practice among New Covenant membership to gravitate toward the most anointed minister who happened to be preaching at our meetings. Long lines formed before the power or prophecy minister, even if there were others less prominent in the visiting ministerial team that might be standing around with nothing to do and no one to pray for after the service.Today’s River proponents believe also that God moves in particular geographical locations, hence the necessity to get wherever God happens to be in order to get a touch from Him. Places like Toronto and Pensacola have become neo-Medieval pilgrimage destinations, and in fact, people are encouraged to make the journey by many of the front-running River preachers and by their own pastors. And this despite Jesus’ obvious counter to that line of thinking when He told the Samaritan woman that physical locations mattered little in the eyes of God (John 4:21). The Temple made of stones would become obsolete. No more yearly pilgrimage. As long as we worship in Spirit and truth, He will dwell with us and reward us accordingly (John 4:20-24).A little common sense might help here. What about the poor or those in some far distant corner of our planet who simply believe Christ’s Gospel without knowledge of or desire for the Toronto anointing? Does it leave them out in the cold, or have they missed a necessary move of God? Plus, the fact that so much merchandising unarguably goes on in the form of videos, tee shirts, cassette recordings of worship music, conference fees, skyrocketing pastors’ salaries—ad infinitum—that this current movement bears more of a resemblance to the money changers in the Temple than the humble followers of Jesus.

    The Biblical Anointing
    So, what, actually, is the anointing? In the Old Testament, it was used to signify the setting apart of an object or the ordaining of an individual for special service to God (Exodus 30:22-30). The anointing oil was specially prepared according to the command of God, and was not to be used for any other purpose or manufactured without regard to God’s specific instructions (Exodus 30:31-33). Kings as well as priests were anointed (1 Samuel 10:1, 1 Samuel 16:13). Elisha was also anointed prophet by Elijah (1 Kings 19:16). The act of pouring out the oil on an individual was used to signify God’s selection, authority, and empowerment for the position.
    But with the coming of Jesus Christ, this form of anointing (signifying God’s choice for a position) with oil passed away* and was replaced with the anointing by the Holy Spirit, who Himself has come to live in each believer, empowering us to follow Christ (2 Corinthians 1:21-22). He also is the one who ministers the gifts of the Spirit within the congregation (Romans 12:6-8, 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, Ephesians 4:8-12), and who performs works of miracles (Galatians 3:5) among His people. He leads us into all the truth, and reveals to us the things of God (1 John 2:20, 27). This entire series of Scriptures, and many others on the same subject, shows us that the scriptural anointing is completely different from what is practiced today within the hyper-charismatic circles of which I once participated.The anointing is not a thing conveniently passed from person-to-person—like getting zapped by a current of electricity a la Rodney Howard-Browne or Benny Hinn. To say, as we so often did in New Covenant Fellowship, “the anointing is now present for healing,” or prophecy, or whatever, is to replace the indwelling Spirit with a physical feeling, emotion, or experience, and to separate Him from His ministry.This is exactly what is suggested by terms like “getting plugged into the power.” What this kind of thinking promotes is exactly what we are seeing within the River camp, the idea that we need something more than we already possess as believers in Christ. This is precisely the original temptation in the Garden of Eden. Just look in the third chapter of Genesis. The fact is, if the Holy Spirit resides in us (and He isn’t going anywhere), then His power is there as well, to enable us to do what He wants us to do. Anything added to what God has already provided is a counterfeit. We don’t need to get zapped, or experience extra-biblical manifestations in order to feel that we have arrived, or to earn inclusion into the mythical great end-times army of Dominion or Latter Rain doctrine.

    Examine the Source
    Is there ever a real power at work? I have thought about this one long and hard, because if we admit that there is a genuine supernatural power manifesting, then in light of both the Scriptures and the voluminous evidences of carnality, we must conclude it is a spirit other than the Holy Spirit. Again, if this is so, that can only mean that Christians have opened themselves up to seducing spirits come to lead believers away from the one true God. I have come to the conclusion—very cautiously—that, at times, a real supernatural power is at work. In both River meetings and at the Brownsville Revival, documented testimonies from church leadership have involved vivid descriptions of people lifted bodily by an unseen force and violently thrown across the room and up against walls. Our own Tom Smalley told of being witness to this in one of Howard-Browne’s Anchorage meetings. He’d seen a man well over two hundred pounds thrown back across three rows of chairs at the touch of God’s Bartender. This is scary stuff. And it doesn’t match anything I’ve come across in my Bible about God’s dealings among His faithful covenant people.
    I have experienced only two incidents of being slain that felt like a genuine power outside of myself. One was in a local Assembly of God service. A visiting woman preacher laid hands on many who had come forward for prayer, and a mass of them went down. Then it was my turn. Though she never so much as touched me, I felt a numbness sweep over my body, and I fell. On the floor, I shook uncontrollably for about ten minutes. The other time involved a service in my former congregation, again with the aid of a visiting minister. My wife, sitting in one of the pews, described my body contorting backward at a severe angle when the power hit me. To me, they both seemed supernatural. Whether or not that was the case, I will leave for the Lord to decide. If they were indeed supernatural, I now question from which source of power they truly came.But I have yet to know of anyone, myself included, who, because of being slain experienced a changed life characterized by a love for the truth and a knowledge of God in agreement with the Scriptures. In my experience, the exact opposite has happened. When folks get touched with this kind of power, they routinely become almost unteachable, preferring the experience to the Word of God. I can’t relate how many times I’ve heard, “Well, maybe I can’t find it in the Scriptures, but it happened to me, so it’s real!”That’s a dangerous step to take. In my many years of involvement with the occult prior to salvation, I had numerous real encounters with the supernatural. Certainly they could not have originated with God, but I once believed some of them did, and to me that was all that mattered. My ears were closed to any protest from Christian friends. Such a stubborn mindset is a fertile seedbed for deception. From just such a people will spring up a world ruler who will lead many to everlasting destruction:
    For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2 Thessalonians 2:7-10)
    https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=17658

    It should also be noticed that even though the "Spirit of God" is moving and slaying people, rarely are "The Catchers" included in the slaying.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

  7. #47
    Laura19 is offline Tree of Liberty Supporter
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    Thanks, Cary. I used to read all this stuff years ago, Toronto and Pensecola stuff. Big Yuck remembering it all. Rodney Howard Browne was also on Trump's advisory team . But what really got me is Rick Wiles has had him on a few times in regard to Trump. So I googled to see if Browne had repented of being the "Holy Ghost bartender" but didn't find anything. Did not understand Rick having him on.


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  8. #48
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    Many years ago I went to a Catholic Charismatic service. I left with my hair standing on end before the service was over. I didn't think then or now that the Holy Spirit was in that service or that church. They were talking gibberish and acting weird. I felt the presence of something, but it was not Jesus or the Holy Spirit. I later went and talked with that priest. I had recently been born again (raised RC) and felt the need to be baptized as an adult to proclaim my belief in Jesus. He told me that I had been baptized as a baby and since time doesn't exist for God, it was valid. I didn't deny the validity of infant baptism, but felt an adult who repents and accepts Jesus as Lord would be making a public display of faith, which I thought was OK as it seems to me that is what baptism with water is; proclaiming your faith in Jesus. He basically threw me out of his office and called me a heretic in so many words.

    The apostles spoke with tongues but what I read in John is they spoke languages that were not their own and that those diverse nationalities in the area at that time could understand as their languages. If someone could point out to me where "speaking in tongues" is speaking gibberish not just speaking in recognizable languages which might not just be not your language; thus the need for an interpreter, (1Cor 14:27-2 I'd appreciate it.

    Edited to add: "Gifts" are described in the bible for sure, and some are certainly listed. But I think one could classify the ability of a person to have a command of several languages as a gift as much as one who can play instruments or sing or paint or write.

  9. #49
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    About being "slain" in the Spirit:

    The term, "slain in the Spirit", is not mentioned anywhere in God's Word. It is certainly not mentioned as a gift of the Spirit.

    The real gifts of the Spirit are still bestowed upon believers by God for the perfecting of the saints, the work of the ministry and the edifying of the the body of Christ. A true gift of the Spirit works to accomplish one or more of these in and among God's people.

    Can anyone explain how such a "gift" like being "slain in the Spirit" works to perfect the saints? In what way does being "slain in the Spirit" accomplish the work of the ministry? I certainly cannot see how it works to edify the body of Christ. Why would God knock down his children to show his power?

    On the other hand, God did knock down his enemies by the power of his Word.

    The prophecy -


    Psalm 40

    14 Let them be ashamed and confounded
    together that seek after my soul to destroy
    it; let them be driven backward and put to
    shame that wish me evil.


    The fulfillment -

    John 18

    3 Judas then, having received a band of men
    and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees,
    cometh thither with lanterns and torches and
    weapons.

    4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should
    come upon him, went forth, and said unto them,
    Whom seek ye?

    5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus
    saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which
    betrayed him, stood with them.

    6 As soon as he had said unto them, I am he,
    they went backward, and fell to the ground.


    When Jesus spake it was his enemies, not his followers, that fell backward to the ground.
    Last edited by Pastor Guest; 02-25-2018 at 10:36 PM.
    Pastor Guest

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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pastor Guest
    The term, "slain in the Spirit", is not mentioned anywhere in God's Word. It is certainly not mentioned as a gift of the Spirit.
    I agree. The only thing that I find that even remotely sounds like "being slain in the spirit" is worded a bit different. "slain of the Lord" or "slain by the Lord". In each case, death was instantaneous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pastor Guest
    When Jesus spake it was his enemies, not his followers, that fell backward to the ground.
    Another good example.

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