More Church v. Evolution (Sort Of)

[RossLunch]

I had not heard of this in the Catholic Church Doctrine.
Has anyone heard this before?


https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f.../3636409/posts


[Catholic Caucus] Enough With the Monkey Business
Catholicism.org ^ | February 24, 2018 | Brian Kelly
Posted on 3/1/2018, 2:48:33 PM by ebb tide
"Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that ‘the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God’ [Pius XII, Humani Generis 36]. (From Catholic Answers Website, “Adam and Eve, and Evolution”}"

The Catholic Church teaches that these things really did happen. All the truths of the faith are rooted in real people and real events. However, when and where and how it happened is another matter. It is perfectly possible for Catholics to believe, for example, that there were other humanoid type creatures on earth and that Adam and Eve were the first to be given a soul by God. They were the first to be in a direct relationship as rational beings with God. We don’t know where it was or when it was, but we affirm that it was. (Blog of Father Dwight Longenecker, “Is the Story of Adam and Eve a Myth?”)

I do not intend, nor have I the time, to refute, in a scholarly way, the absurdity that Adam and Eve “may” have received their bodies from non-rational “humanoid types.”
What I have to say will be simple and concise, albeit impassioned. “No,” I cannot call the above opinion heresy, but I can call such a viewpoint offensive to the clear teaching of Holy Scripture, the fittingness of divine Wisdom, and the dignity of our first parents, who were made in the image and likeness of God.
Let me state at the start that I despise the lie of macro-evolution, as introduced by the atheist Charles Darwin. Communists loved The Origin of the Species as a prelude to Marxist indoctrination. They issued Darwin’s book to their students before they gave them Das Kapital. They loved evolutionist mythology because it reduced man to an animal, a product of chaos, a being that has no eternal destiny, just a here and now phenomenon doomed to annihilation after death. To make man subservient to the interests of the atheistic state, the powers that be must suck out of man such affinities as human personal dignity and family. Man is a “thinking machine” whose capabilities must be harnessed by the dictates of the higher evolved rulers.
Evolution serves their purpose well.
I cannot understand how any Catholic writer can compromise on this issue without weakening the Faith and forfeiting his reason.
Here is the scenario for evolution of the human species with the spurious “Catholic” take on it:
Adam
“From dust thou art and unto dust thou shalt return” (Genesis 3:19).
Sorry, so they say, but Adam’s body may not have been formed from the dust of the earth. He may have received it from a “humanoid” female impregnated by a “humanoid” male. What is a “humanoid” exactly? Who knows. An ape? I mean, what kind of animal, what species, is a “humanoid”?
Adam, so they say, could have been conceived in the womb of this non-rational animal If so, he was born and weaned by a “humanoid” mother.
But, as “Catholic” defenders (or enablers, at the least) of Darwinism would have it, when Adam was conceived he was given by God a rational soul. That soul exercised its rationality after some years from birth. Meanwhile another “humanoid” conceived and gave birth to Eve. Or, maybe it was the same female mother who bore Eve. It doesn’t matter for the evolution facilitators and excusers.
Lo and behold, under divine guidance, Adam and Eve found each other. (Good thing for us all that they did!) Otherwise they’d have no one to talk to. They couldn’t talk to their “humanoid” parents because non-rational animals cannot speak. Language requires intelligence, the formation of idea or concepts into vocal sounds. Parrots can do this by mimicry, but they cannot think. A “speaking” parrot is not significantly different than a barking dog.
So Adam and Eve discover each other. They find a way to communicate their ideas into a vocabulary. Or, maybe (giving some leeway to the “Catholic” evolutionists here), God infused a language into their rational intellects.
Adam is presented with each animal by God and he gives them each a name. I am assuming here that “Catholic” evolutionists are picking up the literal sense of Genesis by this point. What does Adam call the “humanoids”? “Apes”? in whatever language it was that he spoke (I believe it was Hebrew). Does he recognize that one of them is his mother and another Eve’s mother?
If so, it must have been quite wrenching for him and Eve not to be able to speak to their parents. After all, we speak to our pet dogs, and they respond. Did the “parents” of our first parents give some kind of grunting salutation? Scratch their latissimus dorsi?
The Literal Sense of Holy Scripture
According to the defenders (or abettors) of “Catholic” evolution, in the case of the creation of Adam and Eve, there is no literal sense. It’s all poetry, allegory, myth, or some such symbolic fiction. “And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth” (Genesis 2:7). And, again, “dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return (Genesis 3:19). All that is the poetic inspiration of Moses. No slime, no dust for Adam. And, certainly, no Adam’s rib for Eve. They came from the flesh of “humanoids.”
One often sees the quote from Galileo, “the Bible teaches us how to go to heaven not how the heavens go” (which he attributed to Cardinal Baronius) to justify the denial of the literal sense of Genesis and creation. Genesis, however, does not teach how the heavens go, but it does teach how the heavens were created. And that is what must be understood in the context in which the good Oratorian cardinal spoke to his friend Galileo.
[Note See comment below from” Quicumque Vult” which offers a relevant quote on the literal truth of all of Scripture by Pope Leo XIII in his encyclical Providentissimus Deus.]
The Fittingness of Divine Wisdom
Let us make man to our image and likeness (Genesis 1:26).
There is no need to quote the fathers and Doctors of the Church here. All of them teach that Adam was created, body and soul, in the image and likeness of God. Man is not just a soul, but a body and soul in one substance. Some saints, such as Blessed Duns Scotus, whom I am now reading, emphasize that this “image” was in anticipation of the Incarnation of the Son of God — that is, His Sacred Humanity, and the “likeness” was sanctifying grace, which makes us “partakers in the divine nature” (1 Peter 2:4).
Where is the divine Wisdom in infusing a rational soul in the baby in the womb of an irrational animal who has conceived a man? Where is the “fittingness” of a Creator, who does all His works in Wisdom, in this bizarre scenario? Far better for man to be formed from plain matter, “slime”, “dust,” than to be formed in the body of an animal. That “slime,” [I had heard once in a sermon by Father Thomas Feeney, that the “slime” was paradisal soil, like gold. Maybe? He was a poet and poets exaggerate. I am myself hyperbolating] In any event, it is more fitting for God’s Wisdom that the first man be formed directly, fully matured, in the image of God, from this dust, than that he be formed and weaned by an animal.
It is unfortunate that Pope Pius XII gave this concession to the evolutionists. Darwin’s theory is not science. It has never been proven. It opens the door to all kinds of errors regarding Biblical historicity and inerrancy. The pope was expressing his opinion. He was not binding the faithful’s consciences to a new openness regarding the origin of the bodies of our first parents. And, concerning this opinion, he had not one saint on his side and there were many saints who graced the Church after Darwin hit the dust. However, Pope Pius had all the saints on his side when, in this same encyclical, Humani Generis, he lamented that “some are reducing to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church for salvation.”
I promised I would be concise. I rest my case.

[CaryC]

Actually had not heard of this. However, it is obvious that the evolutionary mind set, has infected almost every facet of life.

I don't have the time today, but if you want to discuss this further I would love to.

However, if you have posted this for information purposes, that's fine.

[RossLunch]

Cary, I learn from reading and discussion. So, yes please.

[Look4Truth]

"Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul.

I'm not going to try and track down this source and determine its authenticity but it wouldn't surprise me if it did come from the Catholic false religion. Regardless of where it came from, it's just another example of the dangers of the myth of evolution. The heretical Catholic belief system is riding the beast system straight down to the pit.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. ~ Genesis 2:7

People either believe that or not. I for one believe it.

[CaryC]

Cary, I learn from reading and discussion. So, yes please.

Well, OK I'm game. Not in a bad way.

Something you should consider:

Once the discussion starts, others with opposing views, atheist, evolutionist, etc. and maybe some with opposing religious views will enter. I'm fine with that, as you may have noticed, I defend my views all over the board, and many disagree with them. And that is fine. However, I don't know about you, if you'd rather not, then we can do this by PM's.

I thought of that after my post. Since discussions can get heated, and sometimes ugly, some folks aren't so keen to get into discussions on the open board. Your choice, I'm fine either way.

I asked because sometimes people put stuff up for information purposes, and don't intend to discuss them.

L4T: I originally told Ross that I hadn't heard of that before, but later, it dawned on me that I had. At least something in that field, or POV. I haven't looked it up, but do remember reading about Pope Pious.

It's in one of 3, rather thick books, that I have. My first guess is "I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist" by Turek, which deals with the faith issue of an atheist, and they do have one regardless of what they say. A part of that is macro-evolution, which is based on faith, and absolutely no data.

The second would be "Exo-Vaticana" by Tom Horn, and third is "Petrus Romanus", also by Tom Horn. Both of which deal with the RCC's belief system, when stuff was introduced, and the like. They also deal with the Pope's, and what they did, and the corruption at that level.

Depending on where the discussion goes, and I may have to get them/it out, anyway, but if you want me to, I can try, and run it down for you. And don't mind doing it. It's your call.

Ross: It's your call to. What about the OP do you want to discuss?

Let me just add, that even if the discussion may focus on the RCC, and evolution, that kind of thinking has infiltrated, in some form, or fashion, all mainline organizational, institutional Christian religions. Part of the reason for that is, those that lead those organizations aren't scientist, and they assume there is actual factual scientific evidence to support evolution. There isn't, it's like Global Warming. Then they see Creation on the other hand, which is put forth as being based on faith, which it is not. So, they try to marry the two together.

Even if there isn't a blatant marrying, there is a subtle influence of evolution. In that we are, as a society, which would include Christianity, a more advanced civilization, than our forefathers of ancient days. There is very little about that, which is true. Much of that is based on our ability with computers and cell phones, and technology. Which is based on, or built upon, what others, who have gone before us, discovered. That does not mean we are advanced. The same evil, is present in man, as it was in Cain.

What it does mean is, we have advanced to a point where society thinks we no longer need a Savior, and with the dawning of AI, and an interconnectivity with Computers/human we can save ourselves, and advance to the next step in evolution.

Just trying to show a little of what the Theory of Evolution has done, knowingly, and unknowingly.

Anyway, I await the direction you have in mind for this discussion.

[Look4Truth]

Yeah Cary, I remember something like that too. It's difficult to keep up with the heresies they're teaching these days.

[RossLunch]

I'm not going to try and track down this source and determine its authenticity but it wouldn't surprise me if it did come from the Catholic false religion. Regardless of where it came from, it's just another example of the dangers of the myth of evolution. The heretical Catholic belief system is riding the beast system straight down to the pit.

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. ~ Genesis 2:7

People either believe that or not. I for one believe it.

In the lines below and the link in blue are to Catholicism.org.
Hope that is sufficient.
I have been to a couple of Catholic services with friends of family, but I don't know a lot about their doctrine.

[Catholic Caucus] Enough With the Monkey Business
Catholicism.org ^ | February 24, 2018 | Brian Kelly

[Look4Truth]

Well, if you're interested in learning more about what they teach, this is a good source.

Here's the important info:

A list of false teachings in the Roman Catholic Church

by Matt Slick
The Protestant Reformation happened for a reason. Basically, it was to combat the many false teachings that the Roman Catholic Church had adopted through the centuries. When Martin Luther compared Catholicism to Scripture, the result was his nailing the 95 theses to the Wittenberg door. However, instead of reforming the Roman Catholic Church, it resulted in the protesters, the Protestants, whose aim was to get back to the Scriptures.
Following is a summarized paragraph with references found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) of many of the false teachings of Roman Catholicism. How do we know they are false? By comparing Scripture with what is taught.
-----------------------
The Catholic Church is the one true church (CCC 2105), Infallibility of the Catholic Church, (CCC 2035), Only the Roman Catholic Church has authority to interpret Scripture (CCC 100), The Pope is the head of the church and has the authority of Christ (CCC 2034), The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation (CCC 846), Sacred Tradition equal to scripture (CCC 82), Forgiveness of sins, salvation, is by faith and works (CCC 2036 CCC 2080 2068 ), Full benefit of Salvation is only through the Roman Catholic Church (Vatican 2, Decree on Ecumenism, 3), Grace can be merited (CCC 2010 CCC 2027), The merit of Mary and the Saints can be applied to Catholics and others (1477), Penance is necessary for salvation (CCC 980), Purgatory (CCC 1031 CCC 1475), Indulgences (CCC 1471 CCC 1478 CCC 1498 CCC 1472), Mary is Mediatrix (CCC 969), Mary brings us the gifts of eternal salvation (CCC 969), Mary delivers souls from death (CCC 966), Prayer to the saints (CCC 2677), The Communion elements become the actual body and blood of Christ (CCC 1374 CCC 1376).

• The Catholic church is the one true church
  
  • CCC 2105 "The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is 'the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ.' By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them 'to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live.' The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church. Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies."
  
  
• Infallibility of the Catholic Church
  
  • CCC 2035, "The supreme degree of participation in the authority of Christ is ensured by the charism of infallibility. This infallibility extends as far as does the deposit of divine Revelation; it also extends to all those elements of doctrine, including morals, without which the saving truths of the faith cannot be preserved, explained, or observed."
  
  
• Only the Roman Catholic Church has authority to interpret Scripture
  
  • CCC 100, "The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him."
  
  
• The Pope is the head of the church and has the authority of Christ
  
  • CCC 2034, "The Roman Pontiff and the bishops are 'authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach the faith to the people entrusted to them, the faith to be believed and put into practice.' The ordinary and universal Magisterium of the Pope and the bishops in communion with him teach the faithful the truth to believe, the charity to practice, the beatitude to hope for."
  
  
• The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation
  
  • CCC 846, "How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Churchwhich is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it."
  
  
• Sacred Tradition equal to scripture
  
  • CCC 82, ". . .the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence'."
  
  
• Forgiveness of sins, salvation, is by faith and works
  
  • CCC 2036, "The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the creator, is necessary for salvation."
  • CCC 2080, "The Decalogue contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason."
  • CCC 2068, "so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,"
  
  
• Full benefit of Salvation is only through the Roman Catholic Church
  
  • "For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation,," (Vatican 2, Decree on Ecumenism, 3).
  
  
• Grace can be merited
  
  • CCC 2010, "Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification."
  • CCC 2027, "Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods."
  
  
• The merit of Mary and the Saints can be applied to Catholics and others
  
  • 1477, "This treasury includes as well the prayers and good works of the Blessed Virgin Mary. They are truly immense, unfathomable, and even pristine in their value before God. In the treasury, too, are the prayers and good works of all the saints, all those who have followed in the footsteps of Christ the Lord and by his grace have made their lives holy and carried out the mission in the unity of the Mystical Body."
  
  
• Penance is necessary for salvation
  
  • CCC 980, “This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation for those who have fallen after Baptism, just as Baptism is necessary for salvation for those who have not yet been reborn."
  
  
• Purgatory
  
  • CCC 1031, "The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
  • CCC 1475, "In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
  
  
• Indulgences
  
  • CCC 1471, "The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance. What is an indulgence? 'An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Churchwhich, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.' 'An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin.' The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead."
  • CCC 1478, "An indulgence is obtained through the Church who, by virtue of the power of binding and loosing granted her by Christ Jesus, intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishments due for their sins. Thus the Church does not want simply to come to the aid of these Christians, but also to spur them to works of devotion, penance, and charity.
  • CCC 1498, "Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory."
  • CCC 1472, "...On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin..."
  
  
• Mary (there are many false doctrines concerning Mary found in Roman Catholicism, here are a few)
  
  • Mary is Mediatrix, CCC 969, "Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix.'"
  • Mary brings us the gifts of eternal salvation, CCC 969, "Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation..."
  • Mary delivers souls from death, CCC 966, "...You [Mary] conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death."
  
  
• Prayer to the saints
  
  • CCC 2677, "By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the 'Mother of Mercy,' the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender 'the hour of our death' wholly to her care."
  
  
• The Communion elements become the actual body and blood of Christ
  
  • CCC 1374, "In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."
  • CCC 1376, "The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."

[CaryC]

In regards to RCC and evolution:

It should be noted that the same Jesuit Priest:

Pierre Teilhard de Chardin

Worked on the dig, and discovery, of Piltdown Man, found out to be a hoax some 40 years later, as he did on Peking Man, which when the bones where shipped State side, had disappeared.

The only thing left of Peking Man are plaster casts.

Sorry had to make a run after some Pizza.

Plaster casts do not mean the casts were made from bone/skulls. It could of been anything.

Pope Pius XII served from 1939-1958. Chardin's work started in 1926-and died in 1955. Notice the overlap in the time table.

Teilhard de Chardin has two comprehensive works, The Phenomenon of Man and The Divine Milieu.^[10]

His posthumously published book, The Phenomenon of Man, set forth a sweeping account of the unfolding of the cosmos and the evolution of matter to humanity, to ultimately a reunion with Christ. In the book, Teilhard abandoned literal interpretations of creation in the Book of Genesis in favor of allegorical and theological interpretations. The unfolding of the material cosmos is described from primordial particles to the development of life, human beings and the noosphere, and finally to his vision of the Omega Point in the future, which is "pulling" all creation towards it. He was a leading proponent of orthogenesis, the idea that evolution occurs in a directional, goal-driven way. Teilhard argued in Darwinian terms with respect to biology, and supported the synthetic model of evolution, but argued in Lamarckian terms for the development of culture, primarily through the vehicle of education.^[11] Teilhard made a total commitment to the evolutionary process in the 1920s as the core of his spirituality, at a time when other religious thinkers felt evolutionary thinking challenged the structure of conventional Christian faith. He committed himself to what the evidence showed.^[12]

Teilhard made sense of the universe by assuming it had a vitalist evolutionary process.^[13][14] He interprets complexity as the axis of evolution of matter into a geosphere, a biosphere, into consciousness (in man), and then to supreme consciousness (the Omega Point).

It should be noted:

Although many of Teilhard's writings were

censored by the Catholic Church

during his lifetime because of his views on

original sin

, Teilhard has been posthumously praised by

Pope Benedict XVI

and other eminent Catholic figures, and his theological teachings were cited by

Pope Francis

in the 2015 encyclical,

Laudato si'

. The response to his writings by evolutionary biologists has been, with some exceptions, decidedly negative.

Much more at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre...ard_de_Chardin

Chardin's work in paleontology began in 1912. Darwin's Theory came out in 1864. Darwin's theory was supported in 1873, by Ernst Heinrich Philipp August Haeckel

an atheist.

Haeckel was a

zoologist

, an accomplished artist and illustrator, and later a professor of

comparative anatomy

. Although Haeckel's ideas are important to the history of

evolutionary theory

, and although he was a competent

invertebrateanatomist

most famous for his work on

radiolaria

, many speculative concepts that he championed are now considered incorrect. For example, Haeckel described and named hypothetical ancestral

microorganisms

that have never been found.

Haeckel presented a woodcut of several species showing their similarity in the early stages of life. He was sued by other professors at the school, as a fraud, and they won. Yet, his wood cuts, are still used today in 9th grade biology class.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel

[RossLunch]

Sorry I have been gone a couple of days. Got word my last aunt had passed away.
She was a great lady. She spoke five languages, and was learning one of seven languages they speak in Iran when the Iranian hostage crisis happened (she and my uncle were in Iran when they took over the US Embassy).
She will be missed for a long time.