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Thread: Chance or Designer

  1. #61
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    I was just having a line of thought, it might be a short line, but if we as Christians can establish that there is life in the womb, even a cell has life. Then the only debate left, is whether that life is human, not whether the fetus is alive, or not. That is an established fact, it is alive.

    The way to settle the debate is two fold:

    1) re-create the joining of a human egg, with a human sperm in a lab. Which BTW is already being done. And see what develops, and then let someone else re-create the theory and then we will have an established scientific fact instead of a theory. Or....

    2) take 6,000 years of recorded history that the only thing that has ever been born to a human, is a human.

    So we can pretty clearly say that it is alive, and it is a human.

    And ending the development in the womb is actually killing it. ER: her or him
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  2. #62
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    Something is weird.

    In the Chapel it says I made the last post at 1:47 but when you come here Forty9er is the last poster. I did want to make a post at 1:47 but ???????

    Anyway let's try again, found this interesting:

    From wiki, if you can trust it, and some of this has been mentioned before:

    A cell is the smallest unit of life. Cells are often called the "building blocks of life".

    The study of cells is called cell biology.
    Cells consist of cytoplasm enclosed within a membrane, which contains many biomolecules such as proteins and nucleic acids.[2] Organisms can be classified as unicellular (consisting of a single cell; including bacteria) or multicellular (including plants and animals).[3]

    While the number of cells in plants and animals varies from species to species, humans contain more than 10 trillion (1013) cells.[4] Most plant and animal cells are visible only under a microscope, with dimensions between 1 and 100 micrometres.[5]


    The cell was discovered by Robert Hooke in 1665, who named the biological units for their resemblance to cells inhabited by Christian monks in a monastery.[6][7] Cell theory, first developed in 1839 by Matthias Jakob Schleiden and Theodor Schwann,
    states that all organisms are composed of one or more cells, that cells are the fundamental unit of structure and function in all living organisms, that all cells come from preexisting cells, and that all cells contain the hereditary information necessary for regulating cell functions and for transmitting information to the next generation of cells.[8]
    OK now the other reply shows up?????

    Further information: Abiogenesis and Evolution of cells
    There are several theories about the origin of small molecules that led to life on the early Earth. They may have been carried to Earth on meteorites (see Murchison meteorite), created at deep-sea vents, or synthesized by lightning in a reducing atmosphere (see Miller–Urey experiment). (which has been debunked-added) There is little experimental data defining what the first self-replicating forms were. RNA is thought to be the earliest self-replicating molecule, as it is capable of both storing genetic information and catalyzing chemical reactions (see RNA world hypothesis), but some other entity with the potential to self-replicate could have preceded RNA, such as clay or peptide nucleic acid.[29]

    Cells emerged at least 3.5 billion years ago.[9][10][11] The current belief is that these cells were heterotrophs. The early cell membranes were probably more simple and permeable than modern ones, with only a single fatty acid chain per lipid. Lipids are known to spontaneously form bilayered vesicles in water, and could have preceded RNA, but the first cell membranes could also have been produced by catalytic RNA, or even have required structural proteins before they could form.[30]
    Contains no facts, only speculation.
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  3. #63
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    Hey,

    One of the things we have talked about is the 1 in 10164 which is the probability of a single protein made up of 150 amino acids folding correctly by chance.

    In the video below, run time 16+ minutes, is a talk about proteins. Granted it is a little technical, but I thought it would give us an overview of what proteins do, how many there are in our bodies, etc...

    I would remind you that the 1 in 10164 is merely the correct folding of ONE. What would be the odds of trillions of correct foldings, of various sizes, and functions, by chance.

    The vid is not a Christian production to combat evolution. It is in fact a presentation to show the attempts of using micromachines (proteins) to macro scale them in everyday use. Well, you'll see.

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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaryC View Post
    Hey,

    One of the things we have talked about is the 1 in 10164 which is the probability of a single protein made up of 150 amino acids folding correctly by chance.

    In the video below, run time 16+ minutes, is a talk about proteins. Granted it is a little technical, but I thought it would give us an overview of what proteins do, how many there are in our bodies, etc...

    I would remind you that the 1 in 10164 is merely the correct folding of ONE. What would be the odds of trillions of correct foldings, of various sizes, and functions, by chance.

    The vid is not a Christian production to combat evolution. It is in fact a presentation to show the attempts of using micromachines (proteins) to macro scale them in everyday use. Well, you'll see.
    Yes, pretty amazing video. As I was watching and seeing how the protein machines worked the only thing I could think is how could anyone in their right mind think that all of these things developed on their own without a Creator. It just boggles the mind.

    And here is something else that boggles the mind. We need to better understand your 1 in 10164 chance of correctly folding ONE protein. That chance is so small it's hard to understand what we are talking about. One way to look at it is that the total number of atoms in the entire universe is only about 1082.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty9er View Post
    Yes, pretty amazing video. As I was watching and seeing how the protein machines worked the only thing I could think is how could anyone in their right mind think that all of these things developed on their own without a Creator. It just boggles the mind.

    And here is something else that boggles the mind. We need to better understand your 1 in 10164 chance of correctly folding ONE protein. That chance is so small it's hard to understand what we are talking about. One way to look at it is that the total number of atoms in the entire universe is only about 1082.
    Doesn't it though. The more I look at this stuff, evolution vs creation, the more it does.

    One of the things I pondered, what if the first chance produced the correct folding? My answer to self was, you still have to have the other 10164 to know there was only one. When you start doing more, more chances may appear. So you may end up with 135 in 10164.

    Take a deck of 52 cards. You're objective/mission, should you decide to accept it, is to draw the Ace of Spades. What are the odds of drawing the Ace of spades on the first draw? 1 in 52.

    2 things are needed. 1) there are 52 cards, if one is left out, it may be the Ace of Spades. 2) there is only one shuffle.

    Equivalent here would be there must be 10164 chances, AND there can be only one.

    Time itself has not provided enough chances. Time itself is not 10164 old. And there hasn't been one, there are zillions of 'em. To have zillions means chance is not the cause. It is a stacked deck. Meaning it was done on purpose.

    That probably doesn't make any sense to anyone but me.
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  6. #66
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    I'm going to embed a video below. It's about 16+ minutes.

    It's snippets from two interviews of the same guy. Johnathan Wells PhD. in Genetics and Biology. That comes up rather fast at the beginning, so you can double check that.

    The first six minutes, or so, is an interview snippet, done about 20 or more years ago, in which he is talking about his book "The Icons of Evolution". I think there are 10 of them he discusses. Before the word "icon" became so popular in relation to computers, it was used in reference to "mini idols" or false gods, of the gods people worshiped. And I think that is the reference Johnathan is using in his book.

    These icons are used over and over by evolutionist. They are even used in text books in our public high schools. I remember them being in mine. If you have a child in high school, or junior high and is taking biology, pick their text book up, and check it out.

    The second part was done much later, and I'm guessing at 20 years, and he talks about the general concept of evolution is based on erroneous data and lays out some of the specifics of those errors.

    I started this thread to help educate Christians, and I include myself in that. But if you are a parent of a high schooler, you should consider sitting them down and taking to them about this. If you are the parent of a college student, it may be to late. 75% of Christian college students leave the Christian faith. If you go to church, or are the Pastor of a church, you should consider setting aside a month or more each year, to discuss/study/teach Evolution vs Creation. I mean after all they are getting 12 years of this before they go to college, shouldn't you at least spend a total of 12 months teaching them different?

    It's not a matter of faith, but rather a matter of facts.

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaryC View Post
    I'm going to embed a video below. It's about 16+ minutes.

    It's snippets from two interviews of the same guy. Johnathan Wells PhD. in Genetics and Biology. That comes up rather fast at the beginning, so you can double check that.

    The first six minutes, or so, is an interview snippet, done about 20 or more years ago, in which he is talking about his book "The Icons of Evolution". I think there are 10 of them he discusses. Before the word "icon" became so popular in relation to computers, it was used in reference to "mini idols" or false gods, of the gods people worshiped. And I think that is the reference Johnathan is using in his book.

    These icons are used over and over by evolutionist. They are even used in text books in our public high schools. I remember them being in mine. If you have a child in high school, or junior high and is taking biology, pick their text book up, and check it out.

    The second part was done much later, and I'm guessing at 20 years, and he talks about the general concept of evolution is based on erroneous data and lays out some of the specifics of those errors.

    I started this thread to help educate Christians, and I include myself in that. But if you are a parent of a high schooler, you should consider sitting them down and taking to them about this. If you are the parent of a college student, it may be to late. 75% of Christian college students leave the Christian faith. If you go to church, or are the Pastor of a church, you should consider setting aside a month or more each year, to discuss/study/teach Evolution vs Creation. I mean after all they are getting 12 years of this before they go to college, shouldn't you at least spend a total of 12 months teaching them different?

    It's not a matter of faith, but rather a matter of facts.
    Great video and great advice. There has really been a disinformation campaign that has been waged by the godless evolutionists. And the war going on about evolution and the facts is not really about science but it is a spiritual war.

  8. #68
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    Thanks 9er,

    You may know that I'm biased.

    The general idea, which is not always the case, is that Sunday School teachers tend to order the Sunday School books, and then for a year just read from them. Done.

    And the kids just don't get ANYTHING in the way of knowledge. What is what once they leave the Sunday School class and get in the real world.

    All the real world has to offer is, "yea, hath God said?" And the student has no answer.
    Wise Men Still Seek Him

  9. #69
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    The following is a vid about an hour long. The first 12:30 minutes or so is all introduction. After 12:30 minutes it becomes a presentation by Johnathan Wells.

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  10. #70
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    Hey,

    I had a quick look at the beginning of this thread, and didn't see it, so must of done it in other threads, but I have stated that preachers have tried to marry up evolution with creation.

    If you will notice that scientist that believe in Intelligent Design do not try to marry those two,....."philosophies", they know better, but rather it is preachers/pastors who are not scientist, and really don't know much in the way of science, that do the marrying.

    So, when Mr. Wells mentioned "The Clergy Letter Project", I did some searching.

    The Clergy Letter Project for Christian signees has 14,706. They have other letter projects for Buddist, Rabbi's, and UU.

    Here is the link to the Home page:

    http://www.theclergyletterproject.org/

    Here is the page concerning "The Christian Clergy Letter Project"'

    The Clergy Letter - from American Christian Clergy
    – An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science


    Clic aquí para leer la carta en español
    Cliquer ici pour la version francaise
    Clique aqui para ler a carta em português
    Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible – the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark – convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.

    We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.

    The alphabetical links below will take you to the names of endorsers whose last names start with the letter of the link you choose.

    A | B | C | D | E | F | G | H | I | J | K | L | M | N | O | P | Q | R | S | T | U | V | W | X | Y | Z |
    Number of Listings by State
    Please note that institutions are named for identification purposes only.
    Pick you favorite Pastor/Preacher and see if he has signed it.
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