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Thread: Chance or Designer

  1. #1
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    Default Chance or Designer

    Hey,

    In this thread:

    http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/s...ming-of-Life-2

    The case is made for life to spring forth by CHANCE is astronomically impossible. Which is the case evolution makes, it happened by chance.

    Using "chance" means incorporating "probability". To figure out what are the odds of life happening by chance. At a 1 in 10 to the 164th power.

    There is some dialog in the thread.

    In those vid's the bottom line is, use critical thinking, and don't just accept what is presented. However, there is no other alternative given once evolution, and life, springing forth by chance, is shown to be impossible.

    So the case I'm going to make here is:

    If chance is shown to be an impossibility, the only other alternative is a Designer. It was done on purpose, by someone.

    Who can that designer be?

    Even as we used "probably" to show the evolution is impossible. Here is a vid using "probably" to show not only who Jesus is statistically, but also the accuracy of The Bible.

    It is my contention that since it can be shown that the situations with Jesus were "caused" to be, then Creation was caused to come into being on purpose by the same Creator.

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    I've read much of what C.S. Lewis has had to say, among others. Since he, early on, considered himself to be an atheist at worst and an agnostic at best, who became one of the great apologists for Christianity by using his intellect, I lend a bit of credence to what he said.

    C.S. Lewis:"If a good God made the world why has it gone wrong? And for many years I simply refused to listen to the Christian answers to this question, because I kept on feeling "whatever you say, and however clever your arguments are, isn't it much simpler and easier to say that the world was not made by any intelligent power? Aren't all your arguments simply a complicated attempt to avoid the obvious?" But then that threw me back into another difficulty.

    My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? . . . Of course I could have given up my idea of justice by saying it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too -- for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist -- in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless -- I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality -- namely my idea of justice -- was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning."

    I also have always enjoyed "Evidence That Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell. I don't have a copy now as I kept buying them and then giving them away, so no I don't have one. Heh.
    Last edited by grampster; 05-21-2018 at 04:58 PM.

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    So then, here are a couple for you. This first one is about 45 minutes:

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    Here is the 2d one titled "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" about 39 minutes.

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    Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium.
    I prefer liberty with danger to peace with slavery.

    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
    Gandalf the Grey

    People with ethics have little use for the state. Conversely, the state has little use for people with ethics.

    My Disqus channel:

    https://disqus.com/by/PierreBezukhov1812/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bezukhov View Post
    Aaaa come on Bez, I thought it was a secret. LOL

    Are you saying that is your choice? Or that there are many "myths" out there to choose from?

    I would just make a couple of notes.

    1) The Hindu belief system/religion has many of the similarities as those of Egypt with Ra, Roman and Greek mythology, and even the Sumatrans. And most of those are even traceable to the Babylonians and Sumatrans before them. The only ones with a slightly different belief system is the Assyrians. Which when they conquered the Babylonian Empire the priests fled due to their expected mass murder. They fled mostly to Pergamum noted as the seat of Satan, then to Greece, and then to Rome. Some of the priests could easily of fled to India, carrying their religion with them.

    It should also be noted here that Hinduism is not the oldest religion, the Sumatrans is. Since it was one of the 6 original civilizations.

    2) In any of the other religions including Hinduism, and even Islam if you want to include it, are there more than 300 prophecies concerning their Messiah's first visit? I know they probably have one. At least Islam does. Even in the first paragraph of the link you provided they give the cycle of destruction and rebirth. So are there any prophecies concerning the actual date of any of those. And then are there another 300+ prophecies concerning their second coming? And mixed in with that are there some 1200 other prophecies concerning other things of which 800-1000 have already been fulfilled to the letter?

    Even as was noted the odds of only 48 prophecies being fulfilled by one man-Jesus, is 1 in 10 to the 157th power. Giving the odds on all 300+ for the first coming would be stratosphereical. Not to mention the other 800-1000 other prophecies.

    If there is only one Book, or one Man that can/did that, wouldn't it be prudent to believe it over the rest?

    If you can give a link, or vid that shows the number of prophecies concerning Hinduism, and there coming destruction, and rebirth, especially one that is led by a man, feel free to post it.

    However, you may choose to believe what ever you wish. My advice: Choose wisely.
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  7. #7
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    How many of those prophecies written are actually dated from before Jesus? The actual manuscripts, I mean. I don't have the time or inclination to watch each video.
    Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium.
    I prefer liberty with danger to peace with slavery.

    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
    Gandalf the Grey

    People with ethics have little use for the state. Conversely, the state has little use for people with ethics.

    My Disqus channel:

    https://disqus.com/by/PierreBezukhov1812/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bezukhov View Post
    How many of those prophecies written are actually dated from before Jesus? The actual manuscripts, I mean. I don't have the time or inclination to watch each video.
    I get that you don't have the time, no problem. Once they go over 15, 20 minutes I pretty much don't have the time either. There is a lot of material on the dating, and Josh actually address that somewhat in his vid on the prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.

    There are 2 ways to look at the dating.

    1) Accepting the dating, remember we are only talking about the Old Testament, of the Jewish scribes, and Rabbi's. Which would put the oldest ones around 1400+ BC. Those would be the ones written by Moses, where the earliest one would be "...the seed of woman...." in Gen. 3. There are some more in the other 5 books of Moses all written in that same time frame.

    And then there are other writers at different time periods. David, or assuming it was David since no name is assigned to it, wrote Psalm 2 some 1000 years before Jesus was born, and it depicts the Crucifixion in detail, some 900 years before Crucifixion was invented. Daniel was written in the 6th Century BC detailing the 4 coming Empires, and their succession in order, and the coming of the Messiah. Down to Malachi the last, or latest book, written in the 5th Century BC.

    My meaning is this: there is a spread of some 1000 years between the first prophecies, and the last prophecies, written by men who had no way to communicate (collude) with each other. All of which ended some 500-400 years before Christ came. The period between the Old and New Testament is called the 400 silent years.

    2) or be a skeptic as to the dating, which is fine. A skeptic would say some, or all of the books, were written around the time of Jesus, and written more in a historical fashion to support Jesus as the Messiah. However, there are at least 2 problems with that view:

    A) the Jewish religion. The Jewish religion is based on the 5 books of Moses, and the other writings of the Old Testament. Great pains were/are taken to preserve it. Taking the skeptics view, the Jewish religion would had to of sprung up, about the same time Jesus came on the scene.

    B) The Septuagint. Is a Hebrew to Greek translation of the Old Testament, under taken in Alexandria by 70 scribes, or rabbis. This was done in 275 BC (Josh said 250). The entire text that you have as the Old Testament, is what they translated. Which contains all of the 300+ prophecies concerning Jesus' first coming.

    So even if the skeptic can account for the Jewish religion as having sprung up about 27 BC, there is no accounting for the Septuagint some 275 years before Christ Jesus was born, with the fulfillment of 300+ prophecies in the Septuagint. And the writers of the Septuagint had no ability to communicate, and collude with, anyone at the time of Jesus to cause those prophecies to be fulfilled.

    For instance the collaborators would had to of been in control of the Roman Empire, to cause the people of Israel to be taxed at the time Mary was not only pregnant, but at the time of giving birth. So Joseph had to go to Bethlehem at that exact time, so Jesus could be born there.

    Hope that helps.
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    The following vid is 1:13? long.

    Overview: Sean, in the first part/half plays the part of an Atheist, challenging the audience of Christians, and he does a good job BTW. In the second half, he answers the Atheist. It is intended to challenge the Christian to be prepared to give an answer.



    If you don't have time to watch the whole thing at one sitting, break it in parts and watch. Consider what kind of questions you would ask the Atheist to challenge his world view.
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  10. #10
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    In the thread in the COC "Programming of Life 2" a point was brought up that I was to ignorant to carry on a conversation with, concerning evolution.

    Whether that statement is true, or not, is actually beside the point. Since the vid was never addressed, and had people with degrees in it, addressing evolution.

    Below is another vid by Sean debunking evolution who has a PhD. Quotes from others, some are atheist, and some are not, who have PhD's and at least one who has a double PhD.

    I would take it that people with PhD's are smart people. Run time about 45+ minutes

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