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Thread: Forged election documents in Michigan and Arizona

  1. #21
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    Also there are many democats admit the 2020 election wasn't fair!!

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    What confuses me is the hue and cry in 2016 from the Christian Right was that "God put Trump in in the WH!" "It is God's will that Trump is president!" "The hand of God has saved us!". If God was willing (literally) to move Heaven and Earth in 2016 to see Trump in the Oval Office, why wasn't He willing in 2020 to keep him there?
    Malo periculosam libertatem quam quietum servitium.
    I prefer liberty with danger to peace with slavery.

    “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
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    People with ethics have little use for the state. Conversely, the state has little use for people with ethics.

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolfinoregon View Post
    So tell your overlords in DOJ to get off their butts and enforce the "LAW".

    Since they are not, it seems they are not in a hurry to get this into the courts!!!


    "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

    "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither.“ — Thomas Jefferson
    Are you defending the fraudulent electors? It would appear that you're not in favor of enforcing the law yourself. The law seems to move too slowly when it's on your side; too fast when it's against you.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Man View Post
    Sunflowerstation, I hope that you are not among the snowflakes. TToL is supposed to be a free discussion forum. TToL and snowflakery do not seem to me to have much in common.

    I think that dmatic may be one that should be listening to a variety of sources.

    It's unclear to me what it is about the posts above that I made that seem false to some other members. A lot of Republicans apparently believe that there were some electoral shenanigans. Some Trump "electors" did in fact present themselves as being the legitimate ones in spite of being from states where Biden had beaten Trump in the popular vote. Is there something there that Lone Wolf or dmatic still contest?
    Just from the things that happened during the vote counting that I witnessed and read about I can’t believe foul play wasn’t involved.Boarding up windows so people couldn’t see in them and making election judges stand across the room to name a couple.

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    Will false Trump electors’ attempt to hijack the Michigan vote be punished?

    AG Nessel refers fraudulent Trump electoral certificate investigation to U.S. attorney’s office

    https://michiganadvance.com/2022/01/18/will-false-trump-electors-attempt-to-hijack-the-michigan-vote-be-punished/

    BY: JULIA FORREST, MELANIE CONKLIN AND SUSAN J. DEMAS
    JANUARY 18, 2022

    Attorney General Dana Nessel says her office had referred the investigation into the fraudulent 2020 Electoral College certificate submitted by state Republicans to federal prosecutors.

    During a Thursday appearance on MSNBC’s “The Rachel Maddow Show,” the Democrat said her office had referred the case to the U.S. attorney’s office for the Western District of Michigan, adding she believes that “this is a matter best investigated and potentially prosecuted by the feds.”

    “Of course, there’s no double jeopardy if you were to bring both state and federal charges for the same offenses,” Nessel said. “But obviously this is part of a much bigger conspiracy. And our hope is that the federal authorities and the department of justice and the United States attorney general, Merrick Garland, will take this in coordination with all the other information they received and make an evaluation as to what charges these individuals might face.”

    The phony document claiming former President Donald Trump won Michigan’s 16 electoral votes, was submitted to Congress in December 2020 and was obtained by American Oversight, a Washington, D.C-.based watchdog, as the Advance previously reported. The fraudulent certificates, which were filed by Republicans for Trump, were uncovered by American Oversight through a Freedom of Information Act request.

    However, President Joe Biden won Michigan by 154,000 votes and thus all 16 electoral votes.

    The Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th attack on the United States Capitol also is reportedly probing the issue.

    The Michigan Republican Party slammed Nessel’s comments on what it termed “a left-wing cable news show.”

    “This is nothing more than political prosecution of convenience led by Dana Nessel,” spokesperson Gustavo Portela said in a statement. “Dana Nessel is playing political games with people’s lives and livelihoods for the sake of scoring political points ahead of an election.”

    The Eastman memo

    Michigan’s legal set of Democratic electors met inside the Michigan Capitol on Dec. 14, 2020, to cast their votes. The 16 electors all voted for Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris.

    The fake certificate included 16 signatures from Michigan Republicans, including Michigan RNC National Committeewoman Kathy Berden, who served as chair and submitted the document to officials.

    Other GOP officials who signed the fake document were: Michigan GOP Co-Chair Meshawn Maddock; Amy Facchinello, a Grand Blanc school board member whose QAnon social media posts have come under fire; and Stan Grot, the Shelby Township clerk at the center of a payoff scandal at the Michigan GOP alleged byformer Chair Laura Cox.

    Other signatories were: Hank Choate, Rose Rook, Mayra Rodriguez, Clifford Frost, John Haggard, Kent Vanderwood, Timothy King, Michele Lundgren, Marian Sheridan and Mari-Ann Henry.

    Two of the GOP delegates didn’t show up and were replaced. James Renner replaced Gerald Wall and Ken Thompson replaced former Secretary of State Terri Lynn Land.

    There were identical fraudulent certificates signed in six other states: Arizona, Georgia, New Mexico, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. None of the seven certificates obtained specified that the signatories were an illegitimate slate of electors who were not chosen by the states’ voters.

    “Looking at the certificates, there were striking similarities in the language and the formatting between many of them that … points to this not being an original idea,” says Clark Pettig, spokesperson for American Oversight. “These certificates matter because they show in black and white just how far allies of the former president were prepared to go to subvert our democracy. It’s shocking to see it there on the page.”

    A memo from Trump lawyer John Eastman published by the Washington Post last year outlines a six-step plan to get former Vice President Mike Pence to discard the 2020 elections results in those seven states during the Jan. 6 Electoral College vote count in Congress and install Trump for another presidential term:

    “When [Pence] gets to Arizona, he announces that he has multiple slates of electors, and so is going to defer decision on that until finishing the other States,” wrote Eastman. “At the end, he announces that because of the ongoing disputes in the 7 States, there are no electors that can be deemed validly appointed in those States. That means the total number of “electors appointed” —the language of the 12th Amendment—s 454…. A “majority of the electors appointed” would therefore be 228. There are at this point 232 votes for Trump, 222 votes for Biden. Pence then gavels President Trump as re-elected.”

    Two of the seven states included caveats. In New Mexico, the wording was slightly altered to be less brazen stating that the documents were being submitted, “on the understanding that it might later be determined that we are the duly elected and qualified Electors…” Pennsylvania Republicans used similarly contingent language.

    In Michigan and four other states, the signatures appeared on the document declaring, “We the undersigned, being the duly elected and qualified Electors for President and Vice President of the United States of America from the State of Michigan, do hereby certify the following …”


















    The Michigan document also falsely proclaimed that the fake slate of electors “convened and organized in the State Capitol, in the City of Lansing, Michigan” and “performed the duties enjoined upon” them.

    Trump supporters rallied outside of the state Capitol while the legal Electoral College met. The group included state Reps. Daire Rendon (R-Lake City), Beth Griffin (R-Mattawan), Julie Alexander (R-Hanover) John Reilly (R-Oakland Twp.) and Matt Maddock (R-Milford), who’s married to Meshawn Maddock.

    State Rep. Gary Eisen (R-St. Clair Twp.) did not attend after comments he made to a radio station earlier that day on false allegations of voter fraud. When asked if he could guarantee it would be a “safe day in Lansing, nobody’s going to get hurt,” Eisen said, “No. I don’t know because what we’re doing today is uncharted. It hasn’t been done.” Nessel called the remarks “open sedition.” Eisen was later stripped of his House committees for the last week of session.

    Some activists unsuccessfully tried to enter the building, but were stopped by police. Republicans also tried to illegally submit a sham slate of pro-Trump electors to Capitol police that day.

    Berden sent the fake certificate to the U.S. Senate, the U.S. archivist, Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson and Robert Jonker, chief judge of U.S. District Court for Michigan’s Western District, per a Dec. 14, 2020, memo obtained by the House Jan. 6 select committee.

    Pettig says the “phony electors” need to be viewed as one part of a broader attempt to subvert or overturn elections. Other efforts he cites include bogus “audits” — for which Republicans like attorney general candidate Matt DePerno have called — as well as partisan investigations and planting broad distrust in election results.

    “I think what we are seeing here on multiple levels, on multiple fronts is a broad effort by the former president and his allies to overturn the election by whatever means possible,” Pettig said.

    Potential state and federal charges

    Nessel noted that under state law, the fraudulent electors’ acts could be charged under forgery of a public record, a crime punishable by up to 14 years in prison, or election law forgery, which is punishable by up to five years in prison.

    As for federal charges, Nessel said she believes these offenses could be charged under “forgery of a public record, for the purposes of defrauding the United States or conspiracy to commit an offense to defraud the United States.”

    DePerno, who hopes to run against Nessel this year, blasted Nessel in a tweet last week soliciting campaign contributions with a graphic that featured her in prison: “When we called her out for her corruption, she immediately ran to the fake news for a pity party! The Left may fall for it, but we won’t! Donate $5, $10, $25, or $50 NOW to LOCK HER UP!”

    Nessel responded: “Again…totally normal way for an AG candidate to campaign against an opponent. Soliciting campaign contributions in an exchange for a promise to imprison his political adversaries. Also, someone has a very unrealistic view of how tall I am.”

    Benson, a Democrat who was asked questions on Nov. 30 by the House committee about events prior to the insurrection, also appeared on the show alongside Nessel.

    She said prior to the 2020 election, the state “had seen a great deal of respect and deference to our voters” but that was “upended in the chaos and confusion that we saw in the post-2020 election process.”

    “We not only need to see accountability and justice in this matter for those who broke the law, but we need to work to put protections in place to ensure we do not see a repeat of these nefarious attacks and tactics in future elections,” Benson added.

    There may also be action in other states.

    A complaint against 10 Republicans in Wisconsin who posed as official electors, signing and submitting falsified certification papers to Congress is in front of the Wisconsin Elections Commission and Milwaukee County District Attorney John Chisholm, filed by Law Forward attorneys Jeff Mandell and Mel Barnes.

    They filed the complaint nearly a year ago and so far there have been no charges, penalties or findings on the actions, which could potentially constitute a felony.

    With Nessel asking the federal Justice Department to step in, Wisconsin’s Democratic attorney general appeared open to a similar path.

    Asked if he would consider such an action, Attorney General Josh Kaul responded, “I believe it’s critical that the federal government fully investigates and prosecutes any unlawful actions in furtherance of any seditious conspiracy.”

    Some reporting first ran in the Advance’s sister outlet, the Wisconsin Examiner. Read the story here.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Man View Post
    Will false Trump electors’ attempt to hijack the Michigan vote be punished?

    AG Nessel refers fraudulent Trump electoral certificate investigation to U.S. attorney’s office

    https://michiganadvance.com/2022/01/18/will-false-trump-electors-attempt-to-hijack-the-michigan-vote-be-punished/

    BY: JULIA FORREST, MELANIE CONKLIN AND SUSAN J. DEMAS
    JANUARY 18, 2022

    Attorney General Dana Nessel says her office had referred the investigation into the fraudulent 2020 Electoral College certificate submitted by state Republicans to federal prosecutors.

    During a Thursday appearance on MSNBC’s “The Rachel Maddow Show,” the Democrat said her office had referred the case to the U.S. attorney’s office for the Western District of Michigan, adding she believes that “this is a matter best investigated and potentially prosecuted by the feds.”

    “Of course, there’s no double jeopardy if you were to bring both state and federal charges for the same offenses,” Nessel said. “But obviously this is part of a much bigger conspiracy. And our hope is that the federal authorities and the department of justice and the United States attorney general, Merrick Garland, will take this in coordination with all the other information they received and make an evaluation as to what charges these individuals might face.”

    The phony document claiming former President Donald Trump won Michigan’s 16 electoral votes, was submitted to Congress in December 2020 and was obtained by American Oversight, a Washington, D.C-.based watchdog, as the Advance previously reported. The fraudulent certificates, which were filed by Republicans for Trump, were uncovered by American Oversight through a Freedom of Information Act request.

    However, President Joe Biden won Michigan by 154,000 votes and thus all 16 electoral votes.

    The Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th attack on the United States Capitol also is reportedly probing the issue.

    The Michigan Republican Party slammed Nessel’s comments on what it termed “a left-wing cable news show.”

    “This is nothing more than political prosecution of convenience led by Dana Nessel,” spokesperson Gustavo Portela said in a statement. “Dana Nessel is playing political games with people’s lives and livelihoods for the sake of scoring political points ahead of an election.”

    The Eastman memo

    Michigan’s legal set of Democratic electors met inside the Michigan Capitol on Dec. 14, 2020, to cast their votes. The 16 electors all voted for Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris.

    The fake certificate included 16 signatures from Michigan Republicans, including Michigan RNC National Committeewoman Kathy Berden, who served as chair and submitted the document to officials.

    Other GOP officials who signed the fake document were: Michigan GOP Co-Chair Meshawn Maddock; Amy Facchinello, a Grand Blanc school board member whose QAnon social media posts have come under fire; and Stan Grot, the Shelby Township clerk at the center of a payoff scandal at the Michigan GOP alleged byformer Chair Laura Cox.

    Other signatories were: Hank Choate, Rose Rook, Mayra Rodriguez, Clifford Frost, John Haggard, Kent Vanderwood, Timothy King, Michele Lundgren, Marian Sheridan and Mari-Ann Henry.

    Two of the GOP delegates didn’t show up and were replaced. James Renner replaced Gerald Wall and Ken Thompson replaced former Secretary of State Terri Lynn Land.

    There were identical fraudulent certificates signed in six other states: Arizona, Georgia, New Mexico, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. None of the seven certificates obtained specified that the signatories were an illegitimate slate of electors who were not chosen by the states’ voters.

    “Looking at the certificates, there were striking similarities in the language and the formatting between many of them that … points to this not being an original idea,” says Clark Pettig, spokesperson for American Oversight. “These certificates matter because they show in black and white just how far allies of the former president were prepared to go to subvert our democracy. It’s shocking to see it there on the page.”

    A memo from Trump lawyer John Eastman published by the Washington Post last year outlines a six-step plan to get former Vice President Mike Pence to discard the 2020 elections results in those seven states during the Jan. 6 Electoral College vote count in Congress and install Trump for another presidential term:

    “When [Pence] gets to Arizona, he announces that he has multiple slates of electors, and so is going to defer decision on that until finishing the other States,” wrote Eastman. “At the end, he announces that because of the ongoing disputes in the 7 States, there are no electors that can be deemed validly appointed in those States. That means the total number of “electors appointed” —the language of the 12th Amendment—s 454…. A “majority of the electors appointed” would therefore be 228. There are at this point 232 votes for Trump, 222 votes for Biden. Pence then gavels President Trump as re-elected.”

    Two of the seven states included caveats. In New Mexico, the wording was slightly altered to be less brazen stating that the documents were being submitted, “on the understanding that it might later be determined that we are the duly elected and qualified Electors…” Pennsylvania Republicans used similarly contingent language.

    In Michigan and four other states, the signatures appeared on the document declaring, “We the undersigned, being the duly elected and qualified Electors for President and Vice President of the United States of America from the State of Michigan, do hereby certify the following …”


















    The Michigan document also falsely proclaimed that the fake slate of electors “convened and organized in the State Capitol, in the City of Lansing, Michigan” and “performed the duties enjoined upon” them.

    Trump supporters rallied outside of the state Capitol while the legal Electoral College met. The group included state Reps. Daire Rendon (R-Lake City), Beth Griffin (R-Mattawan), Julie Alexander (R-Hanover) John Reilly (R-Oakland Twp.) and Matt Maddock (R-Milford), who’s married to Meshawn Maddock.

    State Rep. Gary Eisen (R-St. Clair Twp.) did not attend after comments he made to a radio station earlier that day on false allegations of voter fraud. When asked if he could guarantee it would be a “safe day in Lansing, nobody’s going to get hurt,” Eisen said, “No. I don’t know because what we’re doing today is uncharted. It hasn’t been done.” Nessel called the remarks “open sedition.” Eisen was later stripped of his House committees for the last week of session.

    Some activists unsuccessfully tried to enter the building, but were stopped by police. Republicans also tried to illegally submit a sham slate of pro-Trump electors to Capitol police that day.

    Berden sent the fake certificate to the U.S. Senate, the U.S. archivist, Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson and Robert Jonker, chief judge of U.S. District Court for Michigan’s Western District, per a Dec. 14, 2020, memo obtained by the House Jan. 6 select committee.

    Pettig says the “phony electors” need to be viewed as one part of a broader attempt to subvert or overturn elections. Other efforts he cites include bogus “audits” — for which Republicans like attorney general candidate Matt DePerno have called — as well as partisan investigations and planting broad distrust in election results.

    “I think what we are seeing here on multiple levels, on multiple fronts is a broad effort by the former president and his allies to overturn the election by whatever means possible,” Pettig said.

    Potential state and federal charges

    Nessel noted that under state law, the fraudulent electors’ acts could be charged under forgery of a public record, a crime punishable by up to 14 years in prison, or election law forgery, which is punishable by up to five years in prison.

    As for federal charges, Nessel said she believes these offenses could be charged under “forgery of a public record, for the purposes of defrauding the United States or conspiracy to commit an offense to defraud the United States.”

    DePerno, who hopes to run against Nessel this year, blasted Nessel in a tweet last week soliciting campaign contributions with a graphic that featured her in prison: “When we called her out for her corruption, she immediately ran to the fake news for a pity party! The Left may fall for it, but we won’t! Donate $5, $10, $25, or $50 NOW to LOCK HER UP!”

    Nessel responded: “Again…totally normal way for an AG candidate to campaign against an opponent. Soliciting campaign contributions in an exchange for a promise to imprison his political adversaries. Also, someone has a very unrealistic view of how tall I am.”

    Benson, a Democrat who was asked questions on Nov. 30 by the House committee about events prior to the insurrection, also appeared on the show alongside Nessel.

    She said prior to the 2020 election, the state “had seen a great deal of respect and deference to our voters” but that was “upended in the chaos and confusion that we saw in the post-2020 election process.”

    “We not only need to see accountability and justice in this matter for those who broke the law, but we need to work to put protections in place to ensure we do not see a repeat of these nefarious attacks and tactics in future elections,” Benson added.

    There may also be action in other states.

    A complaint against 10 Republicans in Wisconsin who posed as official electors, signing and submitting falsified certification papers to Congress is in front of the Wisconsin Elections Commission and Milwaukee County District Attorney John Chisholm, filed by Law Forward attorneys Jeff Mandell and Mel Barnes.

    They filed the complaint nearly a year ago and so far there have been no charges, penalties or findings on the actions, which could potentially constitute a felony.

    With Nessel asking the federal Justice Department to step in, Wisconsin’s Democratic attorney general appeared open to a similar path.

    Asked if he would consider such an action, Attorney General Josh Kaul responded, “I believe it’s critical that the federal government fully investigates and prosecutes any unlawful actions in furtherance of any seditious conspiracy.”

    Some reporting first ran in the Advance’s sister outlet, the Wisconsin Examiner. Read the story here.

    We'll see.

    Just because they go on TV to "BOAST" about something doesn't mean "ANYTHING"!!

    Under most state LAWS its the legislators that sign off on delegates, not AG, Governors, or election boards!!!

    "Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

    "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither.“ — Thomas Jefferson

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonewolfinoregon View Post
    Under most state LAWS its the legislators that sign off on delegates, not AG, Governors, or election boards!!!
    Exactly. those "delegates" presented themselves as though they were the actual legal delegates and not imposters, which they were. That's election fraud. amazingly, they even signed their real names to it and used their states official seal in some cases.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Man View Post
    Exactly. those "delegates" presented themselves as though they were the actual legal delegates and not imposters, which they were. That's election fraud. amazingly, they even signed their real names to it and used their states official seal in some cases.

    So you admit that Legislators are in charge of the election??

    Means you have to admit there was voter fraud in many states when Democat Gov, Democat AG changed the rules for voting under COVID!!

  9. #29
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    In some states it's the legislatures that are in charge of certifying elections, in other states it's the governors. There may well be states where it's the secretary of states. In states where it's legal for the governors to do so there's nothing fraudulent about improving access to the polls in a pandemic year.

    You're not suggesting that improving access to the polls in some states is in some way equivalent to forging election certifications to send fake electoral votes to congress, are you?

  10. #30
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    I don't normally post a WaPo story but it opened when I clicked on a link. WaPo has a paywall that allows only a few articles a week unless you subscribe.

    As Giuliani coordinated plan for Trump electoral votes in states Biden won, some electors balked


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...430_story.htmlSections








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