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Thread: ”...how did you come in here not having a wedding garment?”

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty9er View Post
    the Law itself says that nothing can be taken away from it
    Messiah, the Torah made flesh, agrees. Before we continue, PLEASE explain where Messiah lied or was in error, will you?

    Mat 5:18 For amein I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one yod or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Torah, till all be fulfilled.

    We see when that occurs, plainly stated:

    Rev 21:1 AND I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away
    "The one who says he stays in Him must himself also walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty9er View Post
    Here is what the Law says:

    Lev 26:14 But if you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments;
    Lev 26:15 and if you shall reject my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant;
    Lev 26:16 I also will do this to you: I will appoint terror over you, even consumption and fever, that shall consume the eyes, and make the soul to pine away. You will sow your seed in vain, for your enemies will eat it.
    Your 'gotcha' stuff won't fly. You have to bring something better to the table that tells the entire matter. What you are suggesting would actually BE sin with no tabernacle nor temple.

    In AD 70, when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, sacrifices essentially stopped. Yah's word was explicit that no sacrifice was to be burnt except on the altar at the tabernacle and, later, the temple. With the destruction of the temple and the exile, there was no place to give an authorized sacrifice.

    Deu 12:5 But unto the place which Yahuah Elohaykem shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither you shall come:

    Deu 12:6 And thither ye shall bring your ascending smoke offerings, and your sacrifices, and את your tithes, and את heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

    Deu 12:7 And there ye shall eat before Yahuah Elohaykem, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein Yahuah Elohayka has blessed you.


    Lev 17:1 AND Yahuah spoke unto Mosheh, saying,
    Lev 17:2 Speak unto El־Aharon, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Yashar’el, and say unto them; This is the thing which Yahuah has commanded, saying,
    Lev 17:3 What man soever there be of the house of Yashar’el, that kills an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that kills it out of the camp,

    Lev 17:4 And brings it not unto the door of the Tabernacle of the assembly, to offer an offering unto Yahuah before the Tabernacle of Yahuah; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he has shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:

    Lev 17:5 To the end that the children of Yashar’el may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto Yahuah, unto the door of the Tabernacle of the assembly, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto Yahuah.

    Lev 17:6 And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of Yahuah at the door of the Tabernacle of the assembly, and burn the fat for a sweet savor unto Yahuah.
    "The one who says he stays in Him must himself also walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off-Grid Organics View Post
    What was required for a Nazirite vow when Paul did this (temple still standing)?

    Act 21:23 Do therefore this that we say to you: We have four men which have a vow on them;

    Act 21:24 Them take, and purify yourself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning you, are nothing; but that you yourself also walk orderly, and guard the Torah.
    It's interesting that you bring up this incident about Paul when he had returned to Jerusalem. James and the elders in Jerusalem accused Paul of telling the Jews not to circumcise their children or walk according to their customs (in the Law). And the elders were right, that is exactly what he had been doing:

    Gal 5:2 Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing.

    Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

    Rom 6:14 For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace.

    Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

    Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they didn’t walk uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do?

    And notice Paul doesn't deny what they have accused him of. But he does agree to do what the elders ask and he and the men are purified so later they can offer sacrifices in the Temple according to Numbers 6, the law of the Nazirite. But it was not God's will that sacrifices should continue and Paul in this circumstance would have gone outside of God's will so God prevented Paul from actually making the sacrifices and violating the Gospel that he preached. But in 1Cor 9:20 I think Paul describes his reasons for his willingness to do what he did:

    1Cor 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain those who are under the law;

    There were many Jews, thousands, in Jerusalem who believed that Christ was the Messiah but they had not accepted that His sacrifice on the cross paid the penalty for sin, once for all, and they continued to cling to the sacrifices of the Law and had not placed their complete faith in Christ to save them. That is a huge problem in the first century church in Jerusalem, while sacrifices can still be made in the Temple, which I think is the primary reason the book of Hebrews was written. Although there is no author listed for Hebrews, I think it was written by Paul or at the very least someone who was very close to him and thoroughly familiar with his teachings. Hebrews teaches that there is a new covenant, not like the old covenant with animal sacrifices and earthly priests, but with Christ as High Priest and with His sacrifice on the cross, once for all, to take away sin:

    Heb 10:7 ​Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come (in the scroll of the book it is written of me) to do your will, O God.’”
    Heb 10:8 Previously saying, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin you didn’t desire, neither had pleasure in them” (those which are offered according to the law),
    Heb 10:9 then he has said, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He takes away the first, that he may establish the second,
    Heb 10:10 by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    Heb 10:16 ​“This is the covenant that I will make with them: ‘After those days,’ says the Lord, ‘I will put my laws on their heart, I will also write them on their mind;’” then he says,
    Heb 10:17 ​“I will remember their sins and their iniquities no more.”
    Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    It says "there is no more offering for sin" because the offerings according to the Law had been canceled and superseded by Christ's sacrifice.

    Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    Although you seem eager to debate, since apparently you have no opposition here in the Chapel and only one or two cheerleaders in the choir, I'm not going to continue this debate with you because your heart is hard and you refuse to acknowledge what is clear from Scripture.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty9er View Post

    Rom 6:14 For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace.
    Again, 'under the law' means, by His blood, we are not subject to it's penalty of death. Yet the first part says SIN shall NOT have dominion over you. Sin is defined, not by you or I, but by YHUH ONLY:

    1Jn 3:4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the Torah: for sin is the transgression of the Torah.

    Rom 6:1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    Rom 6:2 Never. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?



    Quite simple really. I notice you always get hung up with Paul, coming from a Torahless perspective, that makes sense:

    2Pe 3:16 As also in all his cepheriym, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable pervert, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the Lawless, fall from your own stedfastness.

    What law? Torah of course.
    "The one who says he stays in Him must himself also walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty9er View Post
    I'm not going to continue this debate with you
    What a shame, I thought we'd just begun to have some fun! I should have known when you dodged the rest of my posts. I'll get to the rest of your post later if interested, if not, perhaps for the sake of others that may not be misled by Torahlessness.
    "The one who says he stays in Him must himself also walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty9er View Post
    Although you seem eager to debate, since apparently you have no opposition here in the Chapel and only one or two cheerleaders in the choir, I'm not going to continue this debate with you because your heart is hard and you refuse to acknowledge what is clear from Scripture.
    Forty9er! I was surprised to see your name and was eager to follow this discussion, which brought back lots of memories from our discussions way back whenever...but, was very disappointed to see this last sentence which seemed to come from out of nowhere. I honestly hope you continue this with our brother Off Grid without the snark. He would be a worthy "opponent" to your position, as you may have grown to be to his...if that is the case. If you are afraid to honestly assess your stance when objections and/or corrections are raised and then simply revert to character assassinations, and cannot defend your position, then, I suppose it better for you to take your ball and go back home, where you can console yourself that you tried to to correct the wayward, but they just wouldn't listen.

    Maybe your discussion would end like many of the others in the old days, but, I was hoping for a more loving and agreeable outcome. This is a hugely serious topic in my view, with many perplexed about it. I would be proud of you if you would read, listen, consider, discern and then respond to OGO, as you seek to understand and find the truth. The point is that we need all to come into agreement with God and His Truth...most of us having been taught lies that our forefathers even had inherited.

    Until the snow flies I won't have time to interfere, though I will eagerly read your progress. Thanks for considering this honest appeal, Forty9er. You're both making good points about the sacrificial aspects of God's instructions which were added because of transgressions...?

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