Romans 14: Takes "strong faith" to eat what God has prohibited?

[Elijah Gunn]

Have you studied the meaning of the KJV word "fulfill"? Of course He did not fail to accomplish what His Father and our Father sent Him to accomplish. He said: He said, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the Law, till ALL be fulfilled."

1. So, you actually believe that all of the law and the prophets have been fulfilled?

2.Do you teach adherence to any of God's commandments to your congregation? If so, why? (Seeing they are all fulfilled?) I simply do not get it. Sorry. But, I don't get a lot of things, I suppose.

3.I am curious, though. Do you believe the prophetic book of Revelation has been fulfilled? Do you believe death has been cast into the lake of fire?

4.Do you believe hell has been cast into the lake of fire?

5.Are you a preterist?


Thanks for taking the time to answer, if you will. I'm just trying to understand how this Law-less-ness is defended by "Christianity".

I hope you don't mind me answering as well.

1.Yes. I believe Yeshuah fulfilled all the Torah, and all the prophesy about Him to complete the old covenant.

2.In Jeremiah 31:31-34 Elohim is announcing there will be a new covenant. Verse 33 says,"I will put my Law within them,and on their heart I will write it. In Hebrews chapter 10 verse 1 it says that the Law(old covenant) has only a shadow of the good things to come,and not the very form of things. Then in verses 7,8 and 9 Yeshuah says He takes away the first (old covenant) to establish the second (new covenant).In verse 16 the Holy Spirit bears witness, and quotes Jer 31:33.
So no, christians cannot be lawless. Ruach Hakodesh himself writes them on our hearts and in our minds. How does He do it? By us studying His word, just like those new gentile believers back there in Acts 15:21!

3. No, and no

4. Not yet.

5.No

[dmatic]

I don't mind at all. In fact I'd love to discuss this, Elijah.

First, can you tell me what you think the difference is between the "Old" covenant and the "New"?

The reason I ask is that you seem to think contrary to what Messiah teaches us to think. He directly commanded us not to think that He came to do away with the Law or the Prophets. You seem to think that He did. Why is that? Do you disagree with His command? Maybe it comes from your understanding of the word translated into "fulfill" from the Greek. That's the first question I asked Pastor Guest.

You also seem to think that Messiah "completed" the Old Covenant? If you would, please explain what you mean.

It would appear that the Old covenant was never "completed". It was simply broken by those with whom God had made it. So it was no longer in effect. God even divorced Israel and then chastised 'her' 'sister' Judah as being even more wicked than her harlot sister. So, the Old covenant was no longer in force.

The Hebrews passage to which you refer is a good one. The "law" about sacrifices was, indeed, 'added' because of transgressions to the Law, and those sacrifices could never make those comers perfect. So, you see the vision of the Covenant is to make us perfect. How is that effected, now?

Enough questions for now. It's been a long day. Yesterday, the Sabbath, a couple hours before sundown, I "happened" outside and saw our older Longhorn cow in trouble, having gotten her horns caught in the fence somehow and on a slope where she was hopelessly trapped. Her new baby was out with the others in the field. I did not feel guilty at all working to maneuver her around where I finally got her legs under her and watched her regain her consciousness. Didn't know for sure she was going to be OK or not, but was very thankful that this morning she was back to her controlling self. I'll loom at this in the morning then to see if you've had a chance to answer. thanks

[dmatic]

I could spend the time and address the rest if you want, but let's just hit this one and let it be the domino that tumbles the rest in like manner.

First of all, we are not even to consider that He would (Mounce) 17x: to dissolve; to destroy, demolish, overthrow, throw down, Mat_24:2; Mat_26:61; met. to nullify, abrogate, Mat_5:17; Act_5:38-39; absol. to unloose harness, etc., to halt, to stop for the night, lodge, Luk_9:12.


DON’T EVEN THINK that I am come to destroy (G2647) the Torah, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy (G2647), but to fulfil. Mat 5:17

(Strongs) G2647 καταλύω kataluō kat-al-oo'-o

From G2596 and G3089; to loosen down (disintegrate), that is, (by implication) to demolish (literally or figuratively); specifically (compare G2646) to halt for the night: - destroy, dissolve, be guest, lodge, come to nought, overthrow, throw down.

DON’T EVEN THINK SUCH!

THEN, He calls heaven and earth to testify. Heaven and earth passing SURE hasn’t been “fulfilled”. That happens here: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more. Rev 21:1 The verse says “till ALL be fulfilled”.

“For TRULY I SAY unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one yod or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Torah, TILL ALL be fulfilled. Mat 5:18


THEN He takes the stand FOR ALL OF TORAH and shows those who do and teach will have GREAT status in His COMING (Kingdom coming still future) Kingdom -

“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.” Mat 5:19

All that said, WHERE is the confusion over the word “fulfill”? Obviously it does not mean done away or abolished. We are not even to consider that! It’s because the word can mean several different understandings, and must be placed in CONTEXT with the rest of Scripture. In this case:

G4137 πληρόω plēroō play-ro'-o

From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.


THAT fits the rest of Scripture. Examine this prophesy: “Yahuah is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the Torah, and make it honorable”. Isa 42:21

See how it plays out:

Mat 5:27 “You heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ ^{Exo_20:14, Deu_5:18.}
Mat 5:28 “But I say to you that everyone looking at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

FAR from abolishing Torah, He MAGNIFIED Torah beyond the simple command and took it to the next level!

So we see, Scripture is not broken and this STILL means what it says:

“Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the Torah: for sin is the transgression of the Torah.” 1Jn 3:4

STILL AWAITING FULFILLMENT -

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of Yahuah’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Yahuah, to the house of the Elohai of Ya`aqov; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Tsiyon shall go forth the Torah, and the Word of Yahuah from Yerushalayim.

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Certainly not 'done away'.

Hopefully, the pastor and Elijah are studying this good post, brother! I pray for their enlightenment. Thank you.

[Elijah Gunn]

I don't mind at all. In fact I'd love to discuss this, Elijah.

First, can you tell me what you think the difference is between the "Old" covenant and the "New"?

The reason I ask is that you seem to think contrary to what Messiah teaches us to think. He directly commanded us not to think that He came to do away with the Law or the Prophets. You seem to think that He did. Why is that? Do you disagree with His command? Maybe it comes from your understanding of the word translated into "fulfill" from the Greek. That's the first question I asked Pastor Guest.

You also seem to think that Messiah "completed" the Old Covenant? If you would, please explain what you mean.

It would appear that the Old covenant was never "completed". It was simply broken by those with whom God had made it. So it was no longer in effect. God even divorced Israel and then chastised 'her' 'sister' Judah as being even more wicked than her harlot sister. So, the Old covenant was no longer in force.

The Hebrews passage to which you refer is a good one. The "law" about sacrifices was, indeed, 'added' because of transgressions to the Law, and those sacrifices could never make those comers perfect. So, you see the vision of the Covenant is to make us perfect. How is that effected, now?

Enough questions for now. It's been a long day. Yesterday, the Sabbath, a couple hours before sundown, I "happened" outside and saw our older Longhorn cow in trouble, having gotten her horns caught in the fence somehow and on a slope where she was hopelessly trapped. Her new baby was out with the others in the field. I did not feel guilty at all working to maneuver her around where I finally got her legs under her and watched her regain her consciousness. Didn't know for sure she was going to be OK or not, but was very thankful that this morning she was back to her controlling self. I'll loom at this in the morning then to see if you've had a chance to answer. thanks

In regards to your cow I don't think you did anything wrong in regard to the sabbath. Proverbs 12:10 says a righteous man has regard for the life of his beast, and in Mark 3:4 Yeshua asks ,"Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save a life ,or to kill? Also look at Luke 14:3-5.

I work 12 hour days ,and I have 3 day weekends so it's better for me to make longer posts then. Plus I need to research more about the old ,and new covenants. Do you have a scripture reference for when the old covenant ended? I've never heard that before.

[dmatic]

In regards to your cow I don't think you did anything wrong in regard to the sabbath. Proverbs 12:10 says a righteous man has regard for the life of his beast, and in Mark 3:4 Yeshua asks ,"Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save a life ,or to kill? Also look at Luke 14:3-5.

I work 12 hour days ,and I have 3 day weekends so it's better for me to make longer posts then. Plus I need to research more about the old ,and new covenants. Do you have a scripture reference for when the old covenant ended? I've never heard that before.

Thanks, Elijah. I agree with your first paragraph. Mama cow and her baby are basking in the sunshine today, but, she would have been dead if God hadn't, through a series of events, led me to go toward the barn.

I understand the time factor in reading, pondering and answering these questions and posts. Please feel free to take as much time as you want. These are important matters for us to consider as we continue to get to KNOW the LORD, via His promise with His "New" covenant. Actually, it is a continuation of His one-sided covenant with Abraham, as He didn't need his approval, so He put him to sleep!

As for when the "Old" ended, I suppose one could conclude it ended when God said it did, after He divorced "Israel" the "ten" tribes after the division after Solomon died. Then soon after, about 200 years later He sent His armies to take them out of the land..."putting them away", after having given them the writing of divorcement as required in Deut. 24. The Assyrians did this from 745 B.C. -721 B.C. Next came the treacherous sister, "Judah". Basically, Nebechadnezzer, the King of Babylon was hired by God to be His servant to remove Judah from their land in about 604 B.C. I think. But, because of His prophecies about His Son, He allowed them to go back to that land in order to fulfill them. But, After Jesus was murdered, or sacrificed, the "nation", which did not repent in the forty years allotted for repentance before judgment fell, in 70 A.D.

Thusly, God has scattered the "seed of Abraham" all over the globe and is fulfilling His one-sided promise to Abraham...."in thy seed will ALL the families of the earth be blessed!"

Blessing, according to Acts 3:26 involves turning every one of us away from our iniquities!

Enough for now. God bless!

[Elijah Gunn]

[QUOTE=dmatic;2877849]

As for when the "Old" ended, I suppose one could conclude it ended when God said it did, after He divorced "Israel" the "ten" tribes after the division after Solomon died. Then soon after, about 200 years later He sent His armies to take them out of the land..."putting them away", after having given them the writing of divorcement as required in Deut. 24. The Assyrians did this from 745 B.C. -721 B.C. Next came the treacherous sister, "Judah". Basically, Nebechadnezzer, the King of Babylon was hired by God to be His servant to remove Judah from their land in about 604 B.C. I think. But, because of His prophecies about His Son, He allowed them to go back to that land in order to fulfill them. But, After Jesus was murdered, or sacrificed, the "nation", which did not repent in the forty years allotted for repentance before judgment fell, in 70 A.D.

Thusly, God has scattered the "seed of Abraham" all over the globe and is fulfilling His one-sided promise to Abraham...."in thy seed will ALL the families of the earth be blessed!"


Enough for now. God bless![/QUOTE


I have to respectfully disagree with you on a couple of points here.
1. The old covenant did not end with G-d divorcing the Jews by having them exiled to Babylon. G-d was with the Jews, even in Babylon speaking through the prophet Ezekiel.
In Isaiah 50:1 G-d asks, "Where is the certificate of divorce, by which I sent your mother away?" He is asking them to look for something that is not there. Why? The answer is in Leviticus 26:40-46 In fact verse 45 says He will remember the covenant for them.


2. The "Seed of Abraham " is none other than Yeshua himself. Acts 3:22-26. And Galatians 3:8 and since were in the neighborhood lets go down to verse 13 where we see that Yeshua redeems us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us. All the families of the earth are blessed by being able to have salvation through faith in Yeshua.

[Off-Grid Organics]

Yeshua redeems us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us.

Deu 28:1 “And it shall be, if you diligently obey the voice of יהוה your Elohim, to guard to do all His commands which I command you today, that יהוה your Elohim shall set you high above all nations of the earth.
Deu 28:2 “And all these blessings shall come upon you and overtake you, if you obey the voice of יהוה your Elohim:

Deu 28:15 “And it shall be, if you do not obey the voice of יהוה your Elohim, to guard to do all His commands and His laws which I command you today, that all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you:

Deu 30:1 “And it shall be, when all these words come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you shall bring them back to your heart among all the nations where יהוה your Elohim drives you,
Deu 30:2 and shall turn back to יהוה your Elohim and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your being, you and your children,
Deu 30:3 then יהוה your Elohim shall turn back your captivity, and shall have compassion on you, and He shall turn back and gather you from all the peoples where יהוה your Elohim has scattered you.
Deu 30:4 “If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under the heavens, from there יהוה your Elohim does gather you, and from there He does take you.

Blessings when we obey, curses when we don't.

[Elijah Gunn]

Yes, I agree.

Even tho we are not under the Law. Thanks to Yeshua. We still suffer bad consequences,( curses )we we break the moral Law.

[dmatic]

I have to respectfully disagree with you on a couple of points here.
1. The old covenant did not end with G-d divorcing the Jews by having them exiled to Babylon. G-d was with the Jews, even in Babylon speaking through the prophet Ezekiel.
In Isaiah 50:1 G-d asks, "Where is the certificate of divorce, by which I sent your mother away?" He is asking them to look for something that is not there. Why? The answer is in Leviticus 26:40-46 In fact verse 45 says He will remember the covenant for them.


2. The "Seed of Abraham " is none other than Yeshua himself. Acts 3:22-26. And Galatians 3:8 and since were in the neighborhood lets go down to verse 13 where we see that Yeshua redeems us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse for us. All the families of the earth are blessed by being able to have salvation through faith in Yeshua.

Thanks, Elijah. I think we may have to define some terms because I hear what I think you're saying. earlier, in post #32 I asked:

"First, can you tell me what you think the difference is between the "Old" covenant and the "New"?"

What is a Covenant, of course, may be a start. And then the differences. In Jeremiah, God promised a "New" one with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah. Why a 'new one'? because the Old had been found to have been violated and broken.

Many religions today still are trying to honor this Old Covenant that is no longer in force, including some forms of christianity! And. sadly, will hear from the JUdge on that Day, Depart from Me you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you. So, we see that the Law had not been done away with. It was the Old covenant that had been done away with. I just want to know how you define the two.

hint, He never did away with His covenant to Abraham. this is why He continued to speak to, and discipline, those He was blessing, by turning them away from their sins and iniquities.

I won't have time today to answer but will look forward to continuing this tomorrow, LORD willing. Thanks. and God bless you! I won't even time to read OGO's new post from last evening! until tomorrow, Lord willing. Love that brother!