Romans 14: Takes "strong faith" to eat what God has prohibited?

[dmatic]

There is some discussion about what Paul was teaching in Romans 14 in a small group I facilitate. It would appear that they are suggesting that strong faith is exhibited by those who feel free to eat everything!

Here's part of it....Please instruct or comment as you feel led. Thanks

Romans 14:"2 For one person has faith to eat all things, while another, who is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him."

"NASB" 2 One man has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. (only is added)


It appears that this is a discussion of vegetarianism vs. eating clean meats. In those days, there were some who were teaching that in order to be perfect and return to the garden of Eden type existence, that we should return to eating only Adamic "meats" (foods) (Gen. 1:2 ..."every plant yielding seed and every tree which has fruit yielding seed....


Then God gave Noah new instructions: Gen 9:3 Every "moving thing" that is alive shall be food for you;..." But, it is understood that Noah understood the difference between clean and unclean animals...


So, what are we to eat today? Has God really sanctified by His Word that everything is now OK to eat? Has He violated His own instructions in, say, Lev. 11? If Paul said: Nay we establish the Law, how is it that many say he, here, in Romans 14 was NOT establishing it? Might it be that they do not really understand what he is saying? If they are saying that Paul over ruled Jesus' teaching in Matthew 5:17-19, then, can it be said that paul was following Jesus? Or, can it be that they simply do not understand what Paul was teaching?


1 Timothy 4:3 Paul criticizes those men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. What is the truth? Truth is "Thy Word is Truth" according to Yahshua. What is truth regarding what "foods" God created for us to eat? Did He create pigs to be eaten? Did He create shellfish or those without fins and/or scales to be eaten? Not according to His Word of instructions. He created hyenas and pigs and scavenger type creatures to be earth's cleaning machines. They, along with raptor birds of prey, and sea and lake creatures to filter and clean the earth and waters.


Catfish generally, have no scales but are bottom feeders. They keep lakes cleaner of rotting things that fall to the bottom to pollute the waters. They are Not to be eaten. Pigs and hawks and eagles, etc. devour dead things so disease doesn't spread, nor the stench of rotting flesh...etc. They are created perfect for the jobs God created them for. Shrimp, Lobsters, Clams and Oysters filter water to keep it clean. They are NOT to be eaten by God's people...that are living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.

The point is: Is Paul really suggesting it takes strong faith to eat those things that God HAS NOT created to be eaten? People with strong faith can eat ALL things? Really? Is that really what Paul is teaching as he, earlier in Romans said: NO! God forbid! We establish the Law! So, something is amiss it appears to me. It would appear that these people are twisting Paul's teaching while they say it takes strong faith to disobey God's instructions! Seems to me, Peter was right! They twist what Paul was saying to their own destruction.

What is righteous about disobeying our Father's instructions? Isn't that how the devil thinks? Did God really say that? Actually, YES< HE DID! Did He really mean that? The devil tried to persuade Eve the reason that God might have told them not to eat of the prohibited Tree..... In my view, God means what He says. If our so-called conscience gives us permission to over rule God's commands, it appears that our conscience may be defiled. According to Jesus, If any of us break even the least commandments from the Law and Prophets, and teach others it's OK to break it, that we will be called least in the Kingdom....

Not that anyone is trying to elevate himself in God's Kingdom, it's just that it appears evident that Jesus is teaching us to esteem ALL of God's instructions...even the very least! Whatever that might be. Can we really trust a conscience that seems to be giving us permission to break even the least of God's commandments? I shudder. Trust Not in ourselves, but in ALL our ways acknowledge Him and He will direct our paths.

These are basic ideas, I think.

"For the Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" Rom. 14:17

If wanted, I'll try to discuss this more, later, about the definition of righteousness and peace and joy....
Thanks for reading.

[Off-Grid Organics]

It's quite simple. Unless people are OK with Paul apparently talking out both sides of his mouth and make him out to be a confused idiot, just ask if he had any power to change the commands of YHUH. Of course not. A beasts system does that (Dan 7:25). Churchianity that allows for any changes and tries to use Paul as an excuse to sin are in big trouble. They have sided with the beast.

[dmatic]

It's quite simple. Unless people are OK with Paul apparently talking out both sides of his mouth and make him out to be a confused idiot, just ask if he had any power to change the commands of YHUH. Of course not. A beasts system does that (Dan 7:25). Churchianity that allows for any changes and tries to use Paul as an excuse to sin are in big trouble. They have sided with the beast.

Agree! But, as you know...many are deceived and have inherited the lies many of their forefathers inherited. I like your suggestion to ask them if they think Paul had the authority to over rule our Father!...which I tried to ask. You do make things simple! Thanks, brother!

[Off-Grid Organics]

Agree! But, as you know...many are deceived and have inherited the lies many of their forefathers inherited. I like your suggestion to ask them if they think Paul had the authority to over rule our Father!...which I tried to ask. You do make things simple! Thanks, brother!

Amo 3:7 Surely Adonai Yahuah will do nothing, but he reveals his secret unto his servants the prophets.

NO prophesy of any change in Torah, just the location (stone / within).

[Elijah Gunn]

In Acts 11:5-10 Peter relates his vision in Joppa. In verse 8 he says he never ate anything unclean. Then in verse 9 a voice from heaven tells him,"What G-d has cleansed no longer consider unholy".
This is G-d using symbolism to get peter ready to go to the gentiles, and letting him know the dietary laws have stopped. Verse 9 makes that pretty clear.
Now lets go to Acts 15. If there was ever a golden opportunity to make sure the gentile church followed Torah this is it. Some Jews were trying to force the gentiles into Torah observance in order to be saved.Then in verse 10 Peter refers to Torah as being a yoke that neither our fathers or we have been able to bear. Then in verse 11 Peter says both Jews and gentiles are saved through the grace of the Lord Yeshua.
Ok, so we know that we are not saved by works i.e.Torah keeping, but if following the law ( and I am not talking about the moral law here) was critical to a persons walk with Yeshua then why in verses 22 through 29 the only instruction given is to..
1.Abstain from foods sacrificed to idols.
2.Abstain from blood .
3.Abstain from things strangled.
and
4.Abstain from fornication
Verse 28 says that these essentials come directly from RUACH HAKODESH.
The men who were involved in this message to the church in Antioch were the top tier leaders of the early church.
Again, if we are supposed to still keep as much of the Torah as is possible (without there being a temple) why were only 4 simple instructions given. THIS would have been the time to tell them that,"Yes we are saved by grace through faith, but you still need to keep Torah."

[dmatic]

I don't have a lot of time, tonight, Elijah, but great questions. Did God change His mind about the "food laws"? Did He "cleanse" the unclean things, The things He created perfectly to do other jobs in His creation, but specifically told His people NOT to eat them? If so, why the three "food laws" above that you mentioned? I think that the "Jews" of the Jerusalem council knew that these new converts would be going to hear Moses read every Sabbath at the synagogues, so there was no need for them to learn the whole law right away! As they welcomed them into the faith, they gave them a few 'basics' to get started in their walk, following the Messiah, and His teachings.

In regard to peter and his still confessing he had never eaten anything unclean, even after the Messiah had left, why, if God had changed the commands, didn't He tell Peter about the change?

When some of the people came to Yahshua (Jesus) and asked Him how they could inherit life in the AGE, what did He tell them? He said: Keep the commandments.

Gotta go...but should be able to look at this in the morning.

God bless you!

[Off-Grid Organics]

In Acts 11:5-10 Peter relates his vision in Joppa. In verse 8 he says he never ate anything unclean. Then in verse 9 a voice from heaven tells him,"What G-d has cleansed no longer consider unholy".
This is G-d using symbolism to get peter ready to go to the gentiles, and letting him know the dietary laws have stopped. Verse 9 makes that pretty clear.

NO. The two visions were about calling MEN common or unclean, NOT about eating a monkey:
Act 10:28 "..but Elohiym has showed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."


Now lets go to Acts 15. If there was ever a golden opportunity to make sure the gentile church followed Torah this is it. Some Jews were trying to force the gentiles into Torah observance in order to be saved.

"in order to be saved" Torah never saved anyone as we have all fallen short. Torah are instructions for life, and how to define sin (1Jn 3:4). That is the distinction.

Then in verse 10 Peter refers to Torah as being a yoke that neither our fathers or we have been able to bear. Then in verse 11 Peter says both Jews and gentiles are saved through the grace of the Lord Yeshua.

Indeed an unbearable yoke trying to be saved by Torah. We've all sinned. That was NEVER the purpose of Torah. Messiah took our sin debt (breaking of Torah) upon Himself, NOT to continue sinning once cleansed (Rom 6:1-2).

Ok, so we know that we are not saved by works i.e.Torah keeping, but if following the law ( and I am not talking about the moral law here) was critical to a persons walk with Yeshua then why in verses 22 through 29 the only instruction given is to..
1.Abstain from foods sacrificed to idols.
2.Abstain from blood .
3.Abstain from things strangled.
and
4.Abstain from fornication

4 Immediate Torah restrictions were imposed. Is murder OK? Lying? Adultery? Sabbath breaking? NO! These were beginning steps for those who were TURNING to YHUH.

Act 15:19 “Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the nations who are turning to Elohim,
Act 15:20 but that we write to them to abstain from the defilements of idols,a and from whoring,b and from what is strangled,c and from blood.d Footnotes: a Exo_22:20, Lev_17:7, Deu_32:17, Deu_32:21, 1Co_10:14, 1Co_10:20-21. b Num_25:1-3, Lev_17:7. c Gen_9:4, Eze_33:25 (Strangled - One way of eating meat with blood) Pro_21:25. d Lev_17:10-14.

EVERY Sabbath they would learn more Torah -

Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”

Torah is until heaven and earth pass away (Matt 5:18 ), unless they were overruling Messiah?

[Elijah Gunn]

Acts 11:
verse 6 Peter sees the unclean animals.
verse 7 The voice tells Peter to kill and eat them.
verse 9 The voice tells Peter quite clearly that Elohim has cleansed them, and not to consider them unholy.
It's crystal clear.


In regard to the 4 instructions given to the gentile believers, by following those instructions it would make fellowship with the believing Jews much less stressful. The jews would have still been following the dietary laws because it's just how they were taught, how they were used to living, and they would also need to keep them for the sake of not losing family ties. Paul kept Torah not because he had to but so that he would be able to keep credibility in the synagogues he went to preach to. It's also why Paul circumcised Timothy in Acts 16 vs3.

As far as inheriting life, I'm going to assume you are referring to the rich young ruler in Matt 19:16-22. Yeshua lists 5 of the 10 commandments,and includes love your neighbor as yourself.
Why only 5? Since the rich man's god was money Yeshua tells him to give it away and then come follow Him. The rich man won't do it so that reveals the other commandments he was breaking.
1. His money god was before Elohim.
2. He worshiped ,and served his money, property god.
3. He took G-d's name in vain by claiming to be His follower when he was not. ( that commandment is not just about swearing)
4. He likely was a sabbath breaker in order to get more.
and
10. It's also highly likely he coveted others wealth, possessions.

So Yeshua is not teaching that you get eternal life by keeping the commandments. He is showing our utter helplessness in EVER being able to keep them. Thats why HE had to do it for us.

[dmatic]

Did you read Acts 10:28?

What do you do with Yahshua's statement at Matthew 5:17-19?

Thanks.

[Off-Grid Organics]

Acts 11:
verse 6 Peter sees the unclean animals.
verse 7 The voice tells Peter to kill and eat them.
verse 9 The voice tells Peter quite clearly that Elohim has cleansed them, and not to consider them unholy.
It's crystal clear.

First of all, there were TWO visions at play here; Cornelius (a Gentile) and Peter’s (a Jew) vision. Very important to note both of them -
Act 10:1-35 Now there was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a captain of what was called the Italian Regiment, dedicated, and fearing Elohim with all his household, doing many kind deeds to the people, and praying to Elohim always. HE CLEARLY SAW IN A VISION, about the ninth hour of the day, a messenger of Elohim coming to him, and saying to him, “Cornelius!” And looking intently at him, and becoming afraid, he said, “What is it, master?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your kind deeds have come up for a remembrance before Elohim. “And now SEND MEN TO Yapho, and send for Shimʽon who is also called KEPHA. “He is staying with Shimʽon, a leather-tanner, whose house is by the sea.” And when the messenger who spoke to him went away, Cornelius (the gentile) called two of his household servants, and a dedicated soldier from among those who waited on him continually. And having explained to them all, he sent them to Yapho.

So we see the forerunner of Kepha’s vision being laid out; the righteous, Yah-fearing Gentile Cornelius sending an envoy of men, as directed, to Kepha the Jew by a vision -

And on the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Kĕpha went up on the house-top to pray, about the sixth hour. And HE BECAME HUNGRY AND WISHED TO EAT. But while they were preparing, he fell into a trance, and he saw the heaven opened and a certain vessel like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth, in which were all kinds of four-footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping creatures, and the birds of the heaven. And a voice came to him, “Rise up, Kĕpha, slay and eat.” But Kĕpha said, “NOT AT ALL, Master! I have NEVER EATEN whatever is common or unclean.”

Knowing the forever foundation of Torah was set (Ps. 119:44), Kepha knew immediately he couldn’t be being COMMANDED TO SIN by eating abomination. As he pondered the meaning, visitors were calling at the gate looking for him -

And a voice came to him again the second time, “What Elohim has cleansed you do not consider common.” And this took place three times, and the vessel was taken back to the heaven. And Kĕpha was DOUBTING WITHIN HIMSELF WHAT THE VISION MIGHT MEAN, look, the men who had been sent from Cornelius, having asked for the house of Shimʽon, stood at the gate, and calling out, they inquired whether Shimʽon, also known as Kĕpha, was staying there. And as Kĕpha was thinking about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “See, three men seek you. “But rise up, go down and go with them, not doubting at all, for I have sent them.”

Now as the Ruach begins to unfold the mysterious vision, he is made aware of Cornelius having a similar heavenly occurrence and is called to meet with him -

So Kĕpha went down to the men who had been sent to him from Cornelius, and said, “Look, I am the one you seek. Why have you come?” And they said, “Cornelius the captain, a righteous man and one who fears Elohim and well spoken of by the entire nation of the Yehuḏim, was instructed by a set-apart messenger to send for you to his house, and to hear words from you.” So inviting them in, he housed them. And on the next day Kĕpha went away with them, and some brothers from Yapho went with him. And the following day they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius was waiting for them, having called together his relatives and close friends. And it came to be, that when Kĕpha entered, Cornelius met him and FELL DOWN AT HIS FEET AND BOWED before him. BUT Kĕpha raised him up, saying, “STAND UP, I AM ALSO A MAN.” And talking with him, he went in and found many who had come together. And he said to them, “You know that a Yehuḏite man is not allowed* to associate with, or go to one of another race. But ELOHIM HAS SHOWED ME THAT I SHOULD NOT CALL ANY MAN COMMON OR UNCLEAN. THAT IS WHY I came without hesitation when I was sent for.”

Man-made baggage ‘laws’ of Judaism had befallen Kepha. The vision and following orchestrated events set him straight. Nowhere does Torah forbid what Kepha claimed. This statement of Peter's reflects the ethnocentric Jewish exclusivism baggage that the Rabbinic communities of his day had engineered. KJV tries to call it ‘unlawful’ so as to insinuate Torah had been broken, when it was man-made intrusions that were being cast down. Gill’s commentary: “ye know that it is an unlawful thing; what is forbidden by the law of Moses” More, ignorant, anti-Torah bias. It was about MEN! Continuing -

“So I ask, why have you sent for me?” And Cornelius said, “Four days ago I was fasting until this hour. And at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and see, a man stood before me in shining garments, and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your kind deeds were remembered before Elohim. ‘Now send to Yapho and call Shimʽon here, who is also called Kĕpha. He is staying in the house of Shimʽon, a leather-tanner, by the sea. When he comes, he shall speak to you.’ “So I sent to you immediately, and you have done well to come. And now, we are all present before Elohim, TO HEAR ALL that you have been commanded by Elohim.” And opening his mouth, Kĕpha said, “TRULY I SEE THAT ELOHIM SHOWS NO PARTIALITY, BUT IN EVERY NATION, HE WHO FEARS HIM AND WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS IS ACCEPTED BY HIM.

His eyes had been opened, he’d been ‘rabbinicised’. It all made sense now. Well, except to those who still were clinging to their man-made baggage; naturally they were still unnerved and tried to accuse and hammer him about it -

Act 11:1-18 And the emissaries and brothers who were in YEHUDAH HEARD THAT THE GENTILES ALSO RECEIVED THE WORD OF ELOHIM. And when Kĕpha went up to Yerushalayim, those of the circumcision were contending with him, saying, “YOU WENT INTO UNCIRCUMCISED MEN AND ATE WITH THEM!” But Kĕpha BEGAN AND SET IT FORTH in order, saying: “I was in the city of Yapho praying. And in a trance I saw a vision, a certain vessel descending like a great sheet, let down from the heaven by four corners, and it came to me. “Having looked into it, I perceived and I saw four-footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping creatures, and the birds of heaven. “And I heard a voice saying to me, ‘Rise up, Kĕpha, slay and eat.’ “But I said, ‘Not at all, Master! Because whatever is common or unclean has NEVER entered into my mouth.’ “And the voice answered me again from the heaven, ‘What Elohim has cleansed you do not consider common.’ “And this took place three times, and all were drawn up again into the heaven. “And see, immediately three men stood before the house where I was, having been sent to me from Caesarea. “And the Spirit said to me to go with them, not doubting at all. And these six brothers also went with me, and we went into the man’s house. “And he told us how he had seen a messenger standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Yapho, and call for Shimʽon who is also called Kĕpha, who shall speak to you words, by which you shall be saved, you and all your house.’ “And as I began to speak, the Set-apart Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. “And I remembered the word of the Master, how He said, ‘Yohanan indeed immersed in water, but you shall be immersed in the Set-apart Spirit.’ “So if Elohim gave them the SAME GIFT as He gave us when we believed on the Master יהושע Messiah, how was I able to withstand Elohim?” And having heard this, they were silent, and praised Elohim, saying, “THEN ELOHIM HAS INDEED GIVEN TO THE GENTILES ALSO REPENTANCE TO LIFE”

That was a wake-up call to Kepha as well as many of the opposition. It was NEVER about eating any abomination, NEVER about apostasy from Torah. This was over man-made nonsense - can you imagine if He had attacked Torah and said “oh, by the way, Lev. 11 is abolished completely, go eat a pig” ALL HELL WOULD HAVE BROKE LOOSE, being an utter Scriptural impossibility.

Shame on the church-dome commentators who denigrate and detract from Torah, shame on the rabbinics who add to Torah and impose their nonsense as well.

“Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!” Isa 5:20