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  1. #1
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    Default Will The Real Messiah Please Stand Up?

    If the messiah you choose to follow ended the Torah, you got the wrong guy. That’s just an unavoidable fact. You’d have chosen a sinner, one completely disqualified to make any claim as a messiah, or any claim to priesthood (Hos 4:6). Once you realize that, you still have time to drop the counterfeit and get back on the True Messiah’s team. But how long will that Door stay open? It’s super easy to determine if you have the Real Messiah or have adopted a fake.

    “YOU SHALL NOT ADD unto the word which I command you, NOR SHALL YOU TAKE AWAY ought from it, that ye may guard the commandments of Yahuah Elohaykem which I command you.” Deu 4:2

    “All the words I am commanding you, guard to do it – DO NOT ADD TO IT NOR TAKE AWAY from it.Deu 12:32

    NO adding, NO taking away. You haven’t errantly picked a messiah that took it all away, have you? One that did not guard the commandments at all, but sinned in taking them away? That’s a serious, immediate disqualification! If Messiah didn’t guard them, what the heck is the apostle talking about? It’s a firmly defined basis for actually knowing you know Him!

    “And hereby we do KNOW THAT WE KNOW Him, IF we guard his commandments.” 1Jn 2:3 Then he tells us we are indebted to walk as Messiah set example (1Jn 2:6)!

    “Know therefore that Yahuah Elohayka, he is Elohiym, the faithful El, which guards his covenant and mercy with them that love him and guard his commandments to A THOUSAND generations” Deu 7:9

    “He has remembered his covenant FOREVER, the word which he commanded to A THOUSAND generations” Psa 105:8

    That’s quite a while. I’ve seen some calculate a generation as low as 27 years, some go up to 80 years. Not gonna debate that, lets just use the lowest number to prove a point. From Creation, 6000 years divided by 27 = 222.22 generations. Just a “little” short of 1000 generations. We may as well just call it forever, just as Scripture says -

    “Grass shall wither, the flower shall fade, but THE WORD of our Elohim stands FOREVER.” Isa 40:8. “But the Word of Yahuah endures forever.” 1Pe 1:25

    Those are just a few HUGE problems for any counterfeit messiah. If you want to prop up a sinning messiah, one that you think “fulfilled” (destroyed) the law so you can sin, that’s up to you, but you got the wrong guy. If you are OK with your messiah being mistaken, or think He lied, that’s up to you too. But you have to deny the True Messiah’s Words, in effect, denying Him -

    “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of Yahuah.” Mat 4:4

    He said to not even give this a thought! “THINK NOT that I am come to DESTROY (G2647) the Torah...” (Mat 5:17). What does destroy mean? “(G2647) - demolish, loosen down, overthrow, abrogate, nullify, or dissolve - yet most think when He said “fulfill” He meant to do just that! To further bring the point home, He then said -

    “For truly, I say to you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, one yod or one tittle shall by NO MEANS pass from the Torah till all be done.” Mat 5:18

    This is why we see such rigorous testing of Messiah. They tried and tried to catch Him sinning! A huge part of His time was spent setting Torah back in proper perspective after so many years of abuse because of all the added Jewish laws / traditions that disgraced Torah -

    “And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of Elohiym, that ye may guard your own tradition.” Mar 7:9

    “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” Mat 15:9

    Still stuck in a sun-day tradition? X-mess or ishtar traditions? You think you’ll somehow get a pass? A counterfeit messiah may overlook that stuff. But the counterfeit isn’t real, it’s born of men and the imaginations of a carnal mind (Rom 8:7).

    “To the Torah and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” Isa 8:20

    “Yahuah is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the Torah, and make it honorable.” Isa 42:21

    All that said, that means the swine and other assorted abomination has to go as well. The True Messiah wants to clean you up, He doesn’t want you to defile yourselves while profaning Him (Ez 22:26). Only a fake of man’s imagination wouldn’t care.

    “This is the Torah of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moves in the waters, and of every creature that creeps upon the earth: To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.” Lev 11:46

    HODU L'YHUH! Have a great Sabbath!
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



  2. #2
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    When Yeshua fulfilled the Law He did not destroy it. By fulfilling it He was able to be the sinless sacrifice for all who come to faith in Him. His death and resurrection also moved us out from the old and into the new covenant. Romans chapters 6,7 and 8 is a gold mine of scripture dealing with the believer, Law(old covenant) and Grace (new covenant). I myself, and I think every other Christian here on the Tree of Liberty is in complete agreement with Paul when he says in Romans 7:7 ,"What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary,I would not have come to know sin except through the Law.

    I'm in the beginning stages of studying what the new covenant is. As I learn I'll be sharing with you all. I expect it to take a good deal of time.
    At the Passover in Luke 22:20 Yeshua introduces the new covenant to His disciples. We learn some more when Paul quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34 (which is the prophesy of the new covenant) in Hebrews chapter 8:8-12. Then in verse 13 Paul says,"When He said, "A new covenant", He has made the first one obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."
    The Law in the old covenant is still important. (as Romans 7:7 lets us know) However we are under grace for salvation only through faith in Yeshua's finished work on the cross. We are not under the Law ,BUT we are not lawless. Romans chapter 6:1,2 says so, and the rest of the chapter while were at it, lol.
    What will you say on judgment day?

    The bankers win every war.

    When growing food is outlawed I'll BE an outlaw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elijah Gunn View Post
    Romans 7:7 ,"What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary,I would not have come to know sin except through the Law.
    Are there sins that aren't sins anymore? Has the definition changed? Why did we need a renewed covenant? Are the terms of the covenant different? What do you think "under the law" means? Just trying to clarify your position.
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Off-Grid Organics View Post
    Are there sins that aren't sins anymore? Has the definition changed? Why did we need a renewed covenant? Are the terms of the covenant different? What do you think "under the law" means? Just trying to clarify your position.
    Thanks for the question. Busy right now ,but I'll get back on this tomorrow.
    What will you say on judgment day?

    The bankers win every war.

    When growing food is outlawed I'll BE an outlaw.

  5. #5
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    Signed in, wrote a reply to this subject, and the system rejected my post; I signed in again and my attempted post was in gone'sville.

    So, I write a different post; Christ YahuahShua said the doctrines of the Pharisees make the Perfect Law/Word of the King of kings of no effect on Earth;
    And today most Christians figure the Perfect Law/Word of the King of kings is void.
    On top of that, many or most of them figure that they are more righteous than the Creator of all Life and Love, Thus most "Christians" have become no different than the Pharisees; Therefore, as the Pharisees et. al. are cursed, so too are all such "Christians". "Only the overcomers of sin enter the Kingdom" of YahuahShua.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off-Grid Organics View Post
    Are there sins that aren't sins anymore? Has the definition changed? Why did we need a renewed covenant? Are the terms of the covenant different? What do you think "under the law" means? Just trying to clarify your position.

    I'm going to need more time to keep researching, but I will say this. When Yeshua satisfied the wrath of G-d on the cross the old covenant ended, and with it went all 613 laws. As I get all this info digested and sorted out in my own mind I'll start posting about it. The old covenant was not renewed, it was replaced with a new one.
    I'm really glad Elohim has used your posts to get me digging into His word. Thanks!
    What will you say on judgment day?

    The bankers win every war.

    When growing food is outlawed I'll BE an outlaw.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elijah Gunn View Post
    When Yeshua satisfied the wrath of G-d on the cross the old covenant ended, and with it went all 613 laws.
    I'll be most interested to hear how you will make a case for that. If sin is no longer sin and can no longer be defined, all ending at the cross, who then needs any Messiah to forgive sin since that time?
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elijah Gunn View Post
    I'm going to need more time to keep researching, but I will say this. When Yeshua satisfied the wrath of G-d on the cross the old covenant ended, and with it went all 613 laws.
    That conclusion seems to be in direct contradiction to what The Messiah taught, so, I would advise you to do your research with His teaching in mind. Heaven and earth are still here? Matthew 5:17-19. He commanded that all that "Moses" taught should be adhered to. Matthew 23:2-3. It baffles me that you can make a statement like you did above, before you do the research. Isn't that like declaring your theory to be the fact and THEN setting out to prove it? It makes it easier to deceive yourself because you may be tempted to negate any evidence that doesn't prove your conclusion. Some refer to that method as confirmation bias, only looking at "evidence" that confirms what you already want to be true and dismissing everything else?

    Huge and important topic so I hope you enter it without bias and with a meek and teachable heart. May God bless you.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmatic View Post
    That conclusion seems to be in direct contradiction to what The Messiah taught, so, I would advise you to do your research with His teaching in mind. Heaven and earth are still here? Matthew 5:17-19. He commanded that all that "Moses" taught should be adhered to. Matthew 23:2-3. It baffles me that you can make a statement like you did above, before you do the research. Isn't that like declaring your theory to be the fact and THEN setting out to prove it? It makes it easier to deceive yourself because you may be tempted to negate any evidence that doesn't prove your conclusion. Some refer to that method as confirmation bias, only looking at "evidence" that confirms what you already want to be true and dismissing everything else?

    Huge and important topic so I hope you enter it without bias and with a meek and teachable heart. May God bless you.
    It's scary folks fall for that. Way back in 1646 – Massachusetts Bay Colony enacted the death penalty for denying Biblical inspiration. During the same year, the Westminster Confession of Faith was busy dividing the Torah into three categories: moral, civil, and ceremonial. So, they would kill you for not believing, chop it all up, and then tell you what parts are relevant. Of course those divisions are nowhere to be found in Scripture, they are outright liars. This is just the more recent developments of destroying the Word, making Messiah a liar - “Every word” Luk 4:4, “until heaven and earth pass away” Mat 5:18, are meaningless words to them, even though they are spoken by the very Messiah they claim to love. They refuse to walk as He walked (1Jn. 2:6). Their ‘jesus’ is make believe; a fabrication. Total phony. Oh, that’s too harsh? Keep reading.

    Christian apologist Frank Turek says: “In the Old Testament. There were certain laws that were purely for Israel. Old Covenant laws. They no longer apply to Christians. I Know people are going to hate me for this, but it’s true, the Ten Commandments don’t apply to Christians either. The Ten Commandments are part of the Old Covenant. Now, nine of the Ten Commandments are repeated in the New Testament, and because they are repeated in the New Testament, they do apply to Christians. But because they’re the Ten Commandments, they don’t apply to Christians. I like that because I like bacon.”


    “I like bacon”. He just doesn’t like his sin defined as Scripture defines it. But how many of you have heard that before “because they are not repeated in the New Testament, they don't apply to Christians”. Everything has to be repeated in the NT to be valid? That’s what Messiah taught? Who are these people?


    ”Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins...” Rev 18:4 What sins? What law? Let’s face it. CHRISTIANITY CANNOT DEFINE SIN. Thankfully, His people can (1Jn. 3:4)!


    The Presbyterian dispensationalist, Donald Barnhouse, had a similar view of the law, specifically the Ten Commandments. He said it was a “tragic hour when the Reformation churches wrote the Ten Commandments into their creeds and catechisms and sought to bring Gentile believers into bondage to Jewish law, which was never intended either for the Gentile nations or for the church.”


    Yes, a ‘tragic hour’. This is how easily church folk have become ensnared and deceived. At least he rightly calls himself a Gentile (out of covenant, Eph 2:11-12) - ”...in the day of distress THE GENTILES shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, “Our fathers have INHERITED ONLY LIES, futility, and there is no value in them.” Jer 16:19


    One fellow was wise enough to call them on it, giving a few examples: “So, laws against sex with animals (Ex. 22:29), kidnapping (Deut. 24:7), arson (Ex. 22:6), or cursing the deaf or tripping blind people (Lev. 19:14) do not apply? How about ‘just weights and measures’ (Lev. 19:35–36; Deut. 25:13–16)? This law is repeated in Proverbs (11:1; 20:10) but not in the NT.”


    Hoehner, at the time a professor of New Testament at Dallas Theological Seminary, said like Turek, “Well, if something isn’t repeated in the New Testament, it’s not applicable today.” David Chilton asked this pointed question in response: “So if your pastor was found to have had sex with an animal, what would you say?” And Hoehner responded, “Since it’s not repeated in the New Testament, it’s not a sin.” Hide your sheep! These people are sick!


    He’s seminary trained. One of their best. Their Bible should be less than one paragraph, something like “Just believe to be saved, then do any damn thing you want”. Can this be anything but the warned of strong delusion (2 Thes 2:11)? Or is it the man of lawlessness firmly seated and comfortable in their temple?


    “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away (apostasy - Acts 21:21 - forsake Mosheh) first, and that MAN OF SIN be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called Elohiym, or that is worshipped; so that he as Elohiym SITS IN THE TEMPLE of Elohiym, showing himself that he is Elohiym.” 2Th 2:3-4


    “KNOW YE NOT THAT YE ARE THE TEMPLE of Elohiym...” 1Co 3:16
    "The one who says he stays in Him is indebted to walk, even as He walked." 1Jn 2:6

    Without Torah, His walk is impossible - it's Rome's walk without Torah.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Off-Grid Organics View Post

    “YOU SHALL NOT ADD unto the word which I command you, NOR SHALL YOU TAKE AWAY ought from it, that ye may guard the commandments of Yahuah Elohaykem which I command you.” Deu 4:2

    “All the words I am commanding you, guard to do it – DO NOT ADD TO IT NOR TAKE AWAY from it.Deu 12:32

    NO adding, NO taking away. You haven’t errantly picked a messiah that took it all away, have you? One that did not guard the commandments at all, but sinned in taking them away? That’s a serious, immediate disqualification! If Messiah didn’t guard them, what the heck is the apostle talking about? It’s a firmly defined basis for actually knowing you know Him!
    What was added or taken away?

    Quote Originally Posted by Off-Grid Organics View Post
    Still stuck in a sun-day tradition?
    Never understood why the day of the week is so important.


    Quote Originally Posted by Off-Grid Organics View Post
    X-mess or ishtar traditions?
    I don't do much in observance of Easter, so I don't have any "Ishtar traditions" myself.
    I do enjoy Christmas, however, regardless of its roots in Saturnalia.
    "In times of change, the Patriot is a scarce man; brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a Patriot." Mark Twain

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