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  #111  
Old 06-13-2011, 06:01 PM
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Who's More Righteous?
Two men stand before Jesus Christ on Judgement Day. Which of the two is righteous enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?:

1) The thief who was crucified next to Jesus Christ; who publicly declared His belief that Jesus Christ was the Lord; and whom Christ promised would "be with Me in paradise?" Luke 23:43 (Remember: the thief lived a life of lawlessness and received the death penalty as a result).

or

2) A man who diligently kept all 613 "Torah" laws; rested on every sabbath day; sacrificed a lamb without blemish as commanded by the Torah; and even wore his tzitzits religiously but who didn't trust in the power of Christ's blood and the free gift of grace?

Which of the two spends eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven?

You have asked 3 questions:
(1) Who is more righteous
(2) Which of the two is righteous enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven
(3) Which of the two spends eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven


I will attempt to answer each question.

(1) Neither one is more righteous than the other. As Romans 3:10 says "As it is written, there is none righteous, no , not one." You have made a false assumption in assuming that one is righteous and you can compare one's righreousness against another. That would be like asking which bucket is fuller when both buckets are empty. By asking which is fuller you are making an assumption that at least one bucket has something in it when in effect neither bucket has any thing at all in it so neither is fuller than the other.

(2) Again the answer is neither. Neither is righteous enough to spend eternity in heaven. For as Matthew 5:20 states :For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceedthe righteousnessof the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(3) The thief will spend eternity in the kingdom of heaven. Not because of his righteous. But because he repented of his sins and called upon Jesus to save him. It is obivious that he did not follow Torah and also that he did not do any good works since he was on the cross. So his only redeeming act was to call upon Jesus for salvation. So the Torah did not save him neither did good works. Only the GRACE of God.

G God's
R Righteousness
A At
C Christ's
E Expense
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  #112  
Old 06-13-2011, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Red Baron View Post
Who's More Righteous?
Two men stand before Jesus Christ on Judgement Day. Which of the two is righteous enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?:

1) The thief who was crucified next to Jesus Christ; who publicly declared His belief that Jesus Christ was the Lord; and whom Christ promised would "be with Me in paradise?" Luke 23:43 (Remember: the thief lived a life of lawlessness and received the death penalty as a result).

or

2) A man who diligently kept all 613 "Torah" laws; rested on every sabbath day; sacrificed a lamb without blemish as commanded by the Torah; and even wore his tzitzits religiously but who didn't trust in the power of Christ's blood and the free gift of grace?

Which of the two spends eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven?

You have asked 3 questions:
(1) Who is more righteous
(2) Which of the two is righteous enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven
(3) Which of the two spends eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven


I will attempt to answer each question.

(1) Neither one is more righteous than the other. As Romans 3:10 says "As it is written, there is none righteous, no , not one." You have made a false assumption in assuming that one is righteous and you can compare one's righreousness against another. That would be like asking which bucket is fuller when both buckets are empty. By asking which is fuller you are making an assumption that at least one bucket has something in it when in effect neither bucket has any thing at all in it so neither is fuller than the other.

(2) Again the answer is neither. Neither is righteous enough to spend eternity in heaven. For as Matthew 5:20 states :For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceedthe righteousnessof the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

(3) The thief will spend eternity in the kingdom of heaven. Not because of his righteous. But because he repented of his sins and called upon Jesus to save him. It is obivious that he did not follow Torah and also that he did not do any good works since he was on the cross. So his only redeeming act was to call upon Jesus for salvation. So the Torah did not save him neither did good works. Only the GRACE of God.

G God's
R Righteousness
A At
C Christ's
E Expense
Absolutely correct! Thanks for your post. None of us ... not one ... deserves salvation. It is a free gift, unearned.
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  #113  
Old 06-22-2011, 06:09 PM
300mag 300mag is offline
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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
Two men stand before Jesus Christ on Judgement Day. Which of the two is righteous enough to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?:

1) The thief who was crucified next to Jesus Christ; who publicly declared His belief that Jesus Christ was the Lord; and whom Christ promised would "be with Me in paradise?" Luke 23:43 (Remember: the thief lived a life of lawlessness and received the death penalty as a result).

or

2) A man who diligently kept all 613 "Torah" laws; rested on every sabbath day; sacrificed a lamb without blemish as commanded by the Torah; and even wore his tzitzits religiously but who didn't trust in the power of Christ's blood and the free gift of grace?

Which of the two spends eternity in the Kingdom of Heaven?

Number one of course
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  #114  
Old 09-26-2011, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 300mag View Post
Number one of course
Even if a man believed wholeheartedly in Jesus Christ AND kept all 613 of the Torah laws if he failed to keep even one of those laws perfectly he failed to keep them all. So all of that work to keep the law perfectly is made null and void when he fails to keep one of them:

James 2:10, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

However, even though he "offend in one point" he is still saved by grace for his belief in the Savior, Jesus Christ.

Galatians 3:25, "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

Romans 13:8-10, "8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
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  #115  
Old 09-26-2011, 07:46 PM
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Al Swearengen Al Swearengen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
Even if a man believed wholeheartedly in Jesus Christ AND kept all 613 of the Torah laws if he failed to keep even one of those laws perfectly he failed to keep them all. So all of that work to keep the law perfectly is made null and void when he fails to keep one of them:

James 2:10, "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.



Praise Yeshua!
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Mal 4:4 "Remember the Torah of Mosheh, My servant, which I commanded him in Ḥorĕḇ for all Yisra’ĕl – laws and right-rulings.
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  #116  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Swearengen View Post
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.



Praise Yeshua!
Nice verses. Remember, though, that the "word which ye have heard from the beginning" refers to the Word spoken in the Garden of Eden which precedes the word spoken to Moses at Sinai. In other words, the beginning precedes the middle.

1 John 3:11, "For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another."

John 13:34, "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

2 John 1:6, "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning (See 1 John 3:11), ye should walk in it."

Here are the Commandments of Jesus Christ:

Matthew 22:37-40, "37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38This is the first and great commandment.39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Matthew 7:12, "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

Galatians 5:14, "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."

Galatians 6:2, "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ."

Romans 8:2, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

James 2:8
, "If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:"

Edit:After thinking about it for a moment, "the beginning" could be one of two points in history. The literal "beginning" which is "in the beginning" or the Creation period or it could be the beginning of the New Covenant which began at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I'm leaning towards the latter conclusion but it's worth studying. In either case, the Mosaic Law occurred long after the Creation beginning and long before the New Covenant or death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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Last edited by ActionJackson; 09-26-2011 at 09:41 PM.
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  #117  
Old 04-06-2012, 02:47 PM
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Rob_0126 Rob_0126 is offline
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The devil loves squabbles like this.

#1 goes to heaven. Christ is the only way, and thru him, we keep the commandments, old and new, because truly, they are one and the same. God doesnt change, we do, with our imaginations.

Glory to God thru Jesus, our Everything.

Last edited by Rob_0126; 04-06-2012 at 02:50 PM. Reason: clarified
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  #118  
Old 04-19-2012, 07:37 AM
janetn janetn is online now
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If righteousness was able to be earned by law keeping then Christ died in vain. My righteousness is a gift from a loving gracious God - I accepted that gift through faith. Now am I going to add to that righteousness that was a gift from God by keeping the law? The law did nothing for me accept show me that I was is need of a saviour, I could never measure up to the law. Those who think they can win Gods favor by keeping the law are filled with self righeuosness. They have no need of a savoiur - they have the law and their delusion of Gods favor through their own works.

Two men went to the synagoge one a sinner stayed in the back his plea God have mercy on me a sinner. The other sat right up front his prayer was one of self righeousness - his plea - oh arent I great because of who I am [an accident of birth] and boy am I righteous arent you impressed with my works God look at how great I am!

Their is the problem with the law - its your works not Gods, the focus shifts to you and what you do. No bragging in the Kingdom about what you did or did not do. all bragging will be about what a gracious God we have who saved us from our sins.

The thief had faith in a saviour who was dying before his eyes - no logicial reason for him to belive in a humiliated dying saviour, yet he did. One of the greatest examples of faith in scripture! Jesus never reacted negitivly to faith. He often did to self righteousness - a stepchild to law keeping
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  #119  
Old 04-21-2012, 02:53 PM
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Red Baron Red Baron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Swearengen View Post
What if the thief would have been able to come down off the cross? Do you think maybe he would have gladly obeyed with his new chance at life?

Your analogy is flawed and severely biased. The pattern is always grace through faith, works then follow...faith without works is dead.

Any law...whether it come from man or Yah cannot save a person...NADA, ZIP, ZILCH....it can ONLY point out sin and direct you into the Way of living right...at least Yah's law (not man's)!

Had the man in your second scenario kept the entire law flawlessly his entire life...and did no sin...he could have made it. Not one "man" has done this...

But One did in our stead...Yeshua, our Salvation!
You need to get on "Dancing With The Stars" because your dancing around the question is remarkable.
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Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned: and let his prayer become sin. Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
(Psa 109:6-
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  #120  
Old 04-25-2012, 03:02 AM
The Lowest Room The Lowest Room is offline
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Mt 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?



Mk 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.
27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
28 And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.
29 And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days,
30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.
31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
33 ¶ And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


Jn 19:16 ¶ Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.
17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
18 Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.
19 ¶ And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
22 Pilate answered, What I have written I have written.
23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.
24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.
28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.



Lk 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left.
34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.
36 And the soldiers also mocked him, coming to him, and offering him vinegar,
37 And saying, If thou be the king of the Jews, save thyself.
38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
44 ¶ And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.



3857 παραδεισος paradeisos par-ad’-i-sos

of Oriental origin cf פרדס, 06508; TDNT-5:765,777; n m

AV-paradise 3; 3

1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
2) a garden, pleasure ground
2a) grove, park
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise
4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
5) heaven



06508 פרדס pardec par-dace’

of foreign origin, Greek 3857 παραδεισος; n m; {See TWOT on 1808}

AV-orchard 2, forest 1; 3

1) park, preserve, enclosed garden, forest



1808 εξαιρω exairo ex-ah’-ee-ro

from 1537 and 142; ; v

AV-take away 1, put away 1; 2

1) to lift up or take away out of a place
2) to remove



1537 εκ ek ek or εξ ex ex

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; ; prep

AV-of 366, from 181, out of 162, by 55, on 34, with 25, misc 98; 921

1) out of, from, by, away from




==================================================


Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????


Ge 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.


Ps 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.


Ps 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.


Ps 33:1 Rejoice in the LORD, O ye righteous: for praise is comely for the upright.

Ps 34:15 The eyes of the LORD are upon the righteous, and his ears are open unto their cry.

Ps 34:17 The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.

Ps 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Ps 18:23 I was also upright before him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity.

Ec 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.


Da 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep on my face toward the ground: but he touched me, and set me upright.


Ps 107:42 The righteous shall see it, and rejoice: and all iniquity shall stop her mouth.


Isa 3:10 Say ye to the righteous, that it shall be well with him: for they shall eat the fruit of their doings.


Mt 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward.

Lu 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Joh 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)

1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous


Re 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++


Isa 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?


Isa 2:6 ¶ Therefore thou hast forsaken thy people the house of Jacob, because they be replenished from the east, and are soothsayers like the Philistines, and they please themselves in the children of strangers.
7 Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots:
8 Their land also is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands, that which their own fingers have made:
9 And the mean man boweth down, and the great man humbleth himself: therefore forgive them not.
10 ¶ Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
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