Is There Salvation Apart From Faith In Jesus Christ?

[natty threads]

Emily,

I will not engage with people who willfully and knowingly misquote scripture.

Bless up.
Love,
Natty

[Forty9er]

Natty,

You asked for a translation of 1 John 2:9 showing that it means love for fellow believers. Here is one:

God's Word Translation

1Jn 2:9 Those who say that they are in the light but hate other believers are still in the dark.

I will not argue with you whether or not that should be the proper translation but it is the way they have rendered the Greek.

Also, this idea of having a special love for fellow believers is supported by other Scripture:

Joh 13:34-35 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Since John is the person who recorded these words of Christ and who also wrote the verse in question, don't you think he probably had the same thing in mind?

[natty threads]

Originally Posted by Forty9er

Natty,

You asked for a translation of 1 John 2:9 showing that it means love for fellow believers. Here is one:

God's Word Translation

1Jn 2:9 Those who say that they are in the light but hate other believers are still in the dark.

I will not argue with you whether or not that should be the proper translation but it is the way they have rendered the Greek.

Also, this idea of having a special love for fellow believers is supported by other Scripture:

Joh 13:34-35 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Since John is the person who recorded these words of Christ and who also wrote the verse in question, don't you think he probably had the same thing in mind?

forty9er- Yahushua said that if a person does not listen to his brethren and the ecclesia to treat him as a tax collector or a pagan.

HOW did Yahushua treat tax collectors and pagans?

Like brothers.

We are commanded to love EVERYone.

Since John quoted Yahushua doesn't it make more sense that he is referring to what Yahushua said in his letter and not that his letter affected how he quoted Messiah?

Honestly, it never ever even occurred to me that Yahushua ever said to just love fellow believers.
I find that a hard, cold, very limited view of Love.

YHWH said REPEATEDLY to care for the widow, the fatherless, and the sojourner in the land.
He never said "Just take care of believers."

Who am I to judge another's heart for YHWH?

We are not to change scripture- not add to nor take away from.
Period.


Bless up.
Love,
Natty

[Emily]

Originally Posted by natty threads

forty9er- Yahushua said that if a person does not listen to his brethren and the ecclesia to treat him as a tax collector or a pagan.

HOW did Yahushua treat tax collectors and pagans?

Like brothers.

We are commanded to love EVERYone.

Since John quoted Yahushua doesn't it make more sense that he is referring to what Yahushua said in his letter and not that his letter affected how he quoted Messiah?

Honestly, it never ever even occurred to me that Yahushua ever said to just love fellow believers.
I find that a hard, cold, very limited view of Love.

YHWH said REPEATEDLY to care for the widow, the fatherless, and the sojourner in the land.
He never said "Just take care of believers."

Who am I to judge another's heart for YHWH?

We are not to change scripture- not add to nor take away from.
Period.


Bless up.
Love,
Natty

Of course we are to love everyone and I have never said any differently. But there is a different level with brothers and sisters in Christ because we are of the same body of which Jesus is the head.

Ephesians 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

With that said, I will keep repeating to you the truth of my actual position until you finally understand it. Each time you post an incorrect conclusion about me, I will post the truth.

Mark 3
31Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, "Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you." 33"Who are my mother and my brothers?" he asked.
34Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

Now this does not mean that we hate or are mean to those who are not brothers or sisters in Christ but we are instructed not to fellowship with unbelievers.
Matthew 5:44
But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
However,
The Lord has told His people many times to separate from unbelievers. 2 Cor 6:14

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial [b]? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."[c]
17"Therefore come out from them
and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you."[d]
18"I will be a Father to you,
and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty."[e]

c. 2 Corinthians 6:16 Lev. 26:12; Jer. 32:38; Ezek. 37:27
d. 2 Corinthians 6:17 Isaiah 52:11; Ezek. 20:34,41
e. Corinthians 6:18 2 Samuel 7:14; 7:8

[labellavita]

Heart of Dixie,

I am not going to answer all of your questions, because your starting point is totally different than mine so my answers are not what you want to hear (and you can reference old posts if you are truly interested). Most here are not truly interested in understanding the POV of others & myself on this forum that it is not lawlessness that Adonai wants out of us, but love, faithfulness, obedience, humbleness, etc, and I just pray that He puts it into your hearts to at least extend yourself to try to understand what it is we are trying to say instead of reacting w/ doctrines of men and just quoting scripture back at us. We've ALL walked in your shoes, we ALL know what the church teaches, but we are sharing w/ you that there is MORE.

This isn't about Judaism ~OR~ Christianity. This is about walking in HIS ways, and IMHO has nothing to do w/ Christianity. God's plan of redemption is NOT through the church, its through the Jew. This is about getting to the core of HIS plan, not man's interpretation of His plan.

You are approaching this whole subject matter w/ the teachings and mindset of the church. There already was grace before Yeshua came and there already were people saved before Yeshua died for our sins. I can't imagine any one of us is worthier than Moses! And I can't imagine we get to sit at the feet of our savior before he does! Some say there was no grace before His death and resurrection, and that is incorrect.

Hmmmm, so is the idea for some people that if keeping Sabbath isn't salvational, they can then readily CHOOSE to not participate? That is rebelliousness. Its one thing to not understand Sabbath, its another to know and choose to not do it... We can choose all we want to not be a part of His covenant, but why would we???

This is not about religion, this is about relationship. Loving God above our denomination, seeing what it is that He truly has said in His Word, and being willing to walk that path. Many are called, few are chosen.

I ask you to look forward, where does this all end up? All the Jews flooding the churches, all becoming Christians? As a matter of fact, that is NOT what happens. Salvation is of the Jews and our Jewish Messiah is going to be returning Jewish, and one day, every person from the nations will grab a hold of the tzitzit of a Jew and ask that they can go with him, for they realize that God is with them (Zec 8:23) and we'll all be keeping 7th day Sabbath when Yeshua returns & the Feast of Tabernacles (Isaiah 66:22-23 & Zec 14).

Study it up, its in your bible.

Blessings

[natty threads]

Thank-you labellavita.

Maybe the difference is that I don't think about salvation, I think about what Yah wants me doing right here right now.

The Law was written in stone.
There are still places where parts of it can be seen written in stone, even in North America.

Bless up.
Love,
Natty

Originally Posted by labellavita

Heart of Dixie,

I am not going to answer all of your questions, because your starting point is totally different than mine so my answers are not what you want to hear (and you can reference old posts if you are truly interested). Most here are not truly interested in understanding the POV of others & myself on this forum that it is not lawlessness that Adonai wants out of us, but love, faithfulness, obedience, humbleness, etc, and I just pray that He puts it into your hearts to at least extend yourself to try to understand what it is we are trying to say instead of reacting w/ doctrines of men and just quoting scripture back at us. We've ALL walked in your shoes, we ALL know what the church teaches, but we are sharing w/ you that there is MORE.

This isn't about Judaism ~OR~ Christianity. This is about walking in HIS ways, and IMHO has nothing to do w/ Christianity. God's plan of redemption is NOT through the church, its through the Jew. This is about getting to the core of HIS plan, not man's interpretation of His plan.

You are approaching this whole subject matter w/ the teachings and mindset of the church. There already was grace before Yeshua came and there already were people saved before Yeshua died for our sins. I can't imagine any one of us is worthier than Moses! And I can't imagine we get to sit at the feet of our savior before he does! Some say there was no grace before His death and resurrection, and that is incorrect.

Hmmmm, so is the idea for some people that if keeping Sabbath isn't salvational, they can then readily CHOOSE to not participate? That is rebelliousness. Its one thing to not understand Sabbath, its another to know and choose to not do it... We can choose all we want to not be a part of His covenant, but why would we???

This is not about religion, this is about relationship. Loving God above our denomination, seeing what it is that He truly has said in His Word, and being willing to walk that path. Many are called, few are chosen.

I ask you to look forward, where does this all end up? All the Jews flooding the churches, all becoming Christians? As a matter of fact, that is NOT what happens. Salvation is of the Jews and our Jewish Messiah is going to be returning Jewish, and one day, every person from the nations will grab a hold of the tzitzit of a Jew and ask that they can go with him, for they realize that God is with them (Zec 8:23) and we'll all be keeping 7th day Sabbath when Yeshua returns & the Feast of Tabernacles (Isaiah 66:22-23 & Zec 14).

Study it up, its in your bible.

Blessings

[lyn1795]

Originally Posted by celtic73

I think that the very fact that he's refusing to give you a straight answer is an answer in itself

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.


There is NO other way but throught JESUS...period

+1000

John 14:6 - Jesus answered, "I am the way the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except tru Me."

John 3:36 - "He that believeth on the son hath everlasting life."

John 3:16 - ".....whoever beleiveth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life..."

[Heartofdixie]

LB,

I'll use the same formatting as I used in my previous post to you, putting your post in segmented quotation boxes to be able to address each of your comments. I'll put my comments in Navy. I'll leave Scripture to stand on it's own.

labellavita;802679

I am not going to answer all of your questions, because your starting point is totally different than mine so my answers are not what you want to hear (and you can reference old posts if you are truly interested). Most here are not truly interested in understanding the POV of others & myself on this forum that it is not lawlessness that Adonai wants out of us, but love, faithfulness, obedience, humbleness, etc, and I just pray that He puts it into your hearts to at least extend yourself to try to understand what it is we are trying to say instead of reacting w/ doctrines of men and just quoting scripture back at us. We've ALL walked in your shoes, we ALL know what the church teaches, but we are sharing w/ you that there is MORE.

Well, you didn't answer any of my questions, and yes I really, and seriously, did/do want to hear how 'you personally' were/are saved. You should be able to tell me that at least? That should be pretty easy to express. Right now I'd be happy if you could give me that answer. It is the topic of OP and is of the upmost importance.

Telling me to "reference old posts' is a cop out. As far as quoting scripture back at you, you know very well that Christians are to:

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

We are to use scripture when discussing these matters, because:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness::


You should be able to tell me the 'reason for the hope that is in you:

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

This isn't about Judaism ~OR~ Christianity.

This is about walking in HIS ways, and IMHO has nothing to do w/ Christianity. God's plan of redemption is NOT through the church, its through the Jew. This is about getting to the core of HIS plan, not man's interpretation of His plan.

Again, you talk a lot, but say nothing. This is about the important question in the OP, "Is there Salvation apart from Faith in Christ" The core of His Plan is about Jesus Christ, and His sacrifice for our for our sins.

By your non-answere, You leave me to believe that you do not believe that Christ died for your sins or, the sins of the world? And that salvation is not in Jesus Christ? God's 'cor plan " is redempiton. Redemption is through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the Scarlet thread that runs throughout both the Old Testament and the New Testament, and that plan of salvation is the perfect sacrifice, of God manifest in the flesh, who is Jesus Christ. Salvation has come, "It is Finsihed". Jhn 19:30

You are approaching this whole subject matter w/ the teachings and mindset of the church. There already was grace before Yeshua came and there already were people saved before Yeshua died for our sins. I can't imagine any one of us is worthier than Moses! And I can't imagine we get to sit at the feet of our savior before he does! Some say there was no grace before His death and resurrection, and that is incorrect.

No, I am approaching the subject matter through the Word of God. I just can't help but to look for answers, and give answers, with God's word.

And, I sit at the feet of my Savior Jesus Christ, Everyday. It's called Fellowship with God. And because of Christ's atoining sacrfice, I have that fellowship at all times. Now, right this minute while I'm talking with you, and I have it always, and forever through Jesus Christ.

Sorry, pesky scripture again.

Eph 2:8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:


Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,



. Grace = God's unmerited Favor. The gift of God. Faith= the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hbr 11:1

About your comment about Moses being worthy... If you're going back to Moses, why stop at Moses? Why not go back to Abraham? Abraham was not Jewish

Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.

Can't help myself, pesky scriptrure again...

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


Abraham believed God. He believed that God would send the perfect sacrifice. The perfect sacrifice. The Lamb of God. Abraham was also God's friend. Again, Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2Ch 20:7 [Art] not thou our God, [who] didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?


Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:


Rom 4:13¶ For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.


Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Hmmmm, so is the idea for some people that if keeping Sabbath isn't salvational, they can then readily CHOOSE to not participate? That is rebelliousness. Its one thing to not understand Sabbath, its another to know and choose to not do it... We can choose all we want to not be a part of His covenant, but why would we???

The answer is:

Colossians 2:16,17 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.


Romans 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

John 9:16 Therefore some of the Pharisees were saying, "This man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath " But others were saying, "How can a man who is a sinner perform such signs?" And there was a division among them.
Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath.”


How Is It That You Compel The Gentiles To Live like Jews? Don't you realize that it is not required for Salvation? Act 15:1 Speaks of this very thing.

Also, Gal 2:1 where some Jews had secretly infiltrated the Gentile Christians in order to “spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.” When Paul met with the Apostles, Peter began to refuse to sit or speak with the Gentiles (which he would normally and which was against Jewish tradition) because he was trying to keep from offending the Jewish Christians who were present. But Paul wouldn’t let it slide:

Galatians 2:13-16

The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews? We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.”

I find that their is no evidence in the New Testament or in the early church histories where Gentile Christians worshipped on Saturday, ate only kosher foods, or observed Jewish holidays. Scripture clearly indicates that these subjects are a matter of personal choice and that we are not to allow anyone to try and bring us into bondage by saying that God’s Word says otherwise.

The New testament does however speak about about Causing a Brother To Stumble, in regards to Feasts, Food, and Holy Days.

Rom 14:2 Romans 14:2-4 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.


Romans 14:5,6

One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.

Romans 14:14-17

I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Romans 14:20-23

Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

I ask you to look forward, where does this all end up? All the Jews flooding the churches, all becoming Christians? As a matter of fact, that is NOT what happens. Salvation is of the Jews and our Jewish Messiah is going to be returning Jewish, and one day, every person from the nations will grab a hold of the tzitzit of a Jew and ask that they can go with him, for they realize that God is with them (Zec 8:23) and we'll all be keeping 7th day Sabbath when Yeshua returns & the Feast of Tabernacles (Isaiah 66:22-23 & Zec 14).

I am looking forward. Salvation is of Jesus Christ. Which came through the Jews for all, not just the Jews. (Again, the Scarlet Thread of Redemption) When He returns He will come as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Almighty God. I've read the whole of His Book. Even the end.

Jhn 20:28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:16And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Study it up, its in your bible.

I respectfully ask, that you do the same, and I'll end with why this conversation is necessary:

Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.

Galatians 5:1-4 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Romans 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

In Him,

[Heartofdixie]

Sorry, double post

[alixi]

Originally Posted by Emily

Of course we are to love everyone and I have never said any differently. But there is a different level with brothers and sisters in Christ because we are of the same body of which Jesus is the head.

This just seems so obvious. Of course we have a special bond with those who are our brethren and sisters in Christ. We love them in a way we couldn't love those who are not. That is not to say we do not love others too.

In the case of your signature, Emily, I would lovingly suggest that perhaps you ought to take it off and put on something else, so as not to cause a sister to sin... Even though I agree with you 100%, I can see that it is causing others to become angry, offended, and upset - even to the point of cursing. In a case like this, I think being a peacemaker might be a better road to take.

(...Although I believe that the real offense is not your signature line, but the fact that you do not believe following the law will get you to heaven...)