anyone else bothering to watch the dem debate?

[KingsX]

2Pe 3:9 יהוה is not slow in regard to the promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward us, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.b Footnote: b 1Ti_2:4.

You don't seem to get it.

God is in total control of all that.


For those God foreknew, He also predestined
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

And those He predestined He also called;
those He called He also justified;
those He justified He also glorified.

What then shall we say in response to these things?
If God is for us, who can be against us?

Romans 8:29-31

[Off-Grid Organics]

Rom 11:1 I say then, has Elohim rejected His people? Let it not be! For I also am of Yisra’ěl, of the seed of Aḇraham, of the tribe of Binyamin.


Rom 11:2 Elohim has not rejected His people Psa_94:14 whom He knew beforehand. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Ěliyahu, how he pleads with Elohim against Yisra’ěl, saying,

[KingsX]

I have no problem exposing claimed "prophets". No thin ice here.

Ironically, you are witnessing against yourself !!

[Off-Grid Organics]

Ironically, you are witnessing against yourself !!

You just don't get it. I was trying to give you a clue, but it seems a waste of time with you. Good bye.

[Mugwump]

God is in total control of all His creation.

"Free-will" is a humanist fantasy.

Oh boy.

Jos 24:15 “And if it seems evil in your eyes to serve יהוה, choose for yourselves this day whom you are going to serve

Pro 1:29 “Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of יהוה,

Isa 7:16 “For before the child knows to refuse evil and choose the good, the land that you dread is to be forsaken by both her sovereigns.

Isa 65:12 “And I shall allot you to the sword, and let you all bow down to the slaughter, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not hear, and you did evil before My eyes and chose that in which I did not delight.”

I could do this all day, but that should suffice.

The question of free will has vexed and divided Christian theologians since, like, forever. The problem is that free will is effectively incompatible with an omniscient God. If God knows everything that has happened and will happen, then he knows what we're going to do. Hence the future is effectively already set in stone, and what we see or experience as free will is simply an illusion. On the other hand, if we have actual free will and can choose a different path that will actually make the future different, then God isn't in total control of every atom of creation in every instant, and there goes his omnipotence as well.

As I understand (and I could be wrong here, it's been a while) Catholics try to square the circle by saying that if he wanted to, God COULD know everything we're going to do and all the decisions we're going to make, but he chooses not to look. Personally I find that's kind of a metaphysical shell game and not very convincing. Even if God chooses not to look, it nonetheless implies that every instant of the future is a knowable (if not known) outcome, so we're still stuck with our future decisions already having been set in stone, and there goes free will.

Regarding OGO's quotes to prove free will, I think those could be easily refuted by suggesting that when the Scriptures talk about it, they're talking about it from the human point of view, e.g., "choose to do good and not evil." Sure, we may think we have this free will thing, and behave and believe accordingly, but that's only because we don't have God's 4-dimensional perspective to see the future laid out like a scroll. Free will and the ability to choose are an illusion resulting from our limited human outlook.

But in that case, the absence of free will brings up other problematic theological issues. The whole drama of our individual and collective lives is actually no more than a puppet show, and we're all assiduously playing our parts thinking that we're making decisions, but we're not. If God knows in advance whether somebody is going to choose to make the right salvational choice, then basically what it means is that everybody is predestined either for heaven or hell. Also, it makes intercessory prayer a cruel joke. God already knows whether he's going to let your sick baby die or not. Pray if you want, it makes no difference. Or even if it does, he already wound you up to have turned to him in prayer and tearfully beg him to let little Billy recover from that dread disease. Similarly, everybody who does something to have ticked God off such that he destroyed them were just doing what they were supposed to have done all along. God is effectively punishing them for doing his bidding. Pharaoah, Onan, Saul, Haman, Ananias and Saphira, Judas--every darn one of them was just playing his or her part as was set up from the beginning of creation. It's all just a show that God is watching and directing, and we are all his playthings. The logical outcome of this is a monotheistic version of the line from "King Lear:" "As flies to wanton boys, are we to the gods; they kill us for their sport."

[Hoppalong]

Bible Thumping also doesn't Gain Followers to some it is a turn off when this same forum has its own spot call The Chapel

[Mugwump]

Bible Thumping also doesn't Gain Followers to some it is a turn off when this same forum has its own spot call The Chapel

On the other hand, if you have organized your entire point of view around some theological ideology, it seems important and also natural to apply it and bring it up in the context of other conversations about the wider world. The problem with the Chapel is that it's theology or Biblical stuff in a conversational vacuum, and tends to get kind of abstract. Really, it's much more interesting as applied to current events. For instance, you can argue about "free will" in a theoretical way, but it's much more interesting to discuss whether it exists and applies to everyday terrestrial events like elections, or the acts of the powerful or criminals or everyday people. The topic becomes more real.

[KingsX]

Bible Thumping also doesn't Gain Followers to some it is a turn off when this same forum has its own spot call The Chapel

TOL should have a troll sub-forum to segregate antichrist trolls.

[Bezukhov]

You don't seem to get it.

God is in total control of all that.


For those God foreknew, He also predestined
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

And those He predestined He also called;
those He called He also justified;
those He justified He also glorified.

What then shall we say in response to these things?
If God is for us, who can be against us?

Romans 8:29-31

So let's see if I have your story straight. Here we have your God, KingsX, who is without beginning or end. So for an eternity He's sitting all alone in the dark. Doing what? We'll leave that to the imagination. Anyways, He gets this idea: "Hey! I think I'll create a type of intelligent beings. Now why? Hmmm... That's it! Some of them I'll create just so I persecute them and make them suffer! It'll be soooo much fun!!!"

Now, what's the difference between your god and Moloch, let's say? Both get their jollies by seeing people tormented for their own perverse amusement.

[Lenno]