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Thread: Taboo subject...Romans 1

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnonymousCoward View Post
    A troll of course, just two posts ago.
    I'm sorry....I didn't realize that word was so offensive. I shall refrain from using it.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnonymousCoward View Post
    Whatever. I'm sorry that honest questions like the one you copied above provoke you to call me names.

    BTW, are you talking to me? I didn't call you a troll.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGIG View Post

    What I'm saying is that those in Christ will not be cut off from God if we do not keep the jots and tittles found in Mosaic Covenant Law.

    -JGIG
    I guess you will have to argue with Yahshua about what He means by...

    Mat 5:18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the TORAH, till all be fulfilled.

    I haven't personally witnessed Him FULFILL His second coming, the resurrection FULFILLED, nor FULFILLING the fall feasts, etc. etc., etc. Did I miss somthing or are you simply spreading more lies, JG?

    You might want to ask Him about that "heaven and earth" passing stuff too...if you get the chance.

    He does not like false teachers...and by His words, you fit the bill.

    I'm sorry if you think these words harsh, but it's better coming from me than what will be coming from Him.

    Shalom out.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGIG View Post
    And if it's our ol' buddy CO, I have the privilege of having him troll me on two forums!

    Lucky me !

    -JGIG
    If by 'CO' you are refering to 'Captain Obvious' there is no way possible that he could be 'TheAnonymousCoward'. Captain Obvious was banned from here, and no real Christian such as' TheAnonymous Coward 'would enter a forum under a different name. That would be decidedly UN Christian and no way 'The AnonymousCoward' would ever do such a thing.
    It would be like getting kicked out of someones house and then sneaking back in like a THIEF

    Right 'Anonymous Coward'?
    Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

    Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.

    Isa 66:2For all those [things] hath mine hand made, and all those [things] have been, saith the LORD: but to this [man] will I look, [even] to [him that is] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

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  6. #36
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    wow. what a very strange thread.

    youd think that by just reading Acts 15 would clear this up, you know, paul and the first jerusalem council? pauls ministry was to the gentiles. there were some in the early church who felt that non-jewish christians must first become jewish in order to be christian, in order to be saved.

    this was in direction opposition to what paul believed and preached. paul did NOT preach the torah to the gentiles.

    there was quite a bit of discussion at the first jerusalem council, but it was prayed over and the Holy sprit was sought.

    pauls ministry was accepted, the apostles and elders agreed that gentiles did NOT have to become jewish or follow old covenant laws and the instructions for the gentiles were given in a letter sent out.

    starting with Acts 15:5 you can see for yourself that it was cleared up then that gentiles were not required to be circumscised or follow mosic law.

    Peter: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

    James : “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21


    the apostles and elders sent a letter to the churches that stated:
    "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."

    now....if some folk feel its right to follow mosiac law as tho it helps them be more godly, more power to them, have at it.

    but it is clear, from the very beginning, that NO ONE has the right or authority or power to demand or expect non-jews to follow mosaic laws or become jewish in order to be a christian, nor to castigate those who do not follow mosiac laws in following Christ Jesus.

    Peter, James, John, Paul, --None of the apostles or elders of the church taught that.

    None.

    seems pretty clear to me. and simple.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzy View Post
    wow. what a very strange thread.

    youd think that by just reading Acts 15 would clear this up, you know, paul and the first jerusalem council? pauls ministry was to the gentiles. there were some in the early church who felt that non-jewish christians must first become jewish in order to be christian, in order to be saved.

    this was in direction opposition to what paul believed and preached. paul did NOT preach the torah to the gentiles.

    there was quite a bit of discussion at the first jerusalem council, but it was prayed over and the Holy sprit was sought.

    pauls ministry was accepted, the apostles and elders agreed that gentiles did NOT have to become jewish or follow old covenant laws and the instructions for the gentiles were given in a letter sent out.

    starting with Acts 15:5 you can see for yourself that it was cleared up then that gentiles were not required to be circumscised or follow mosic law.

    Peter: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

    James : “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21


    the apostles and elders sent a letter to the churches that stated:
    "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."

    now....if some folk feel its right to follow mosiac law as tho it helps them be more godly, more power to them, have at it.

    but it is clear, from the very beginning, that NO ONE has the right or authority or power to demand or expect non-jews to follow mosaic laws or become jewish in order to be a christian, nor to castigate those who do not follow mosiac laws in following Christ Jesus.

    Peter, James, John, Paul, --None of the apostles or elders of the church taught that.

    None.

    seems pretty clear to me. and simple.

    Nice to meet you Jazzy...


    House of Judah

    One point of contention , keeping Torah doesn't make you Jewish , being born of the tribe of Judah, or being of the nation of Judea (tribes of: Judah, Benyamin or Levy) would make you "Jewish" , or converting to the doctrines of the Pharisees , or the modern Rabbinical Judaism might make you Jewish by religion. But following Torah " the commandments of God" , just makes you a faithful servant of the Most High, and great in the kingdom according to Matthew 5:19.


    Keeping the commandments for gentiles?

    1Cr 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

    What's strange about this verse in 1st Corinthians 7:19 ? Isn't being circumcised a commandment of God? It is...

    Let me suggest an answer , the term "circumcision" is not referring to an act of keeping the commandments of God, but a reference to a religion, or a peoples i.e. Greek "ethos" and not meaning those literally circumcised, rather those "of the culture of circumcision" that are distinctly Jewish in this context, those "of the nations" i.e. Gentiles are not identified in this way.

    According to Paul it doesn't matter if you are ethnically and culturally Jewish " of the Circumcision " or " of the nations" ; the weighty matter is keeping the commandments of God. Literal Circumcision is a commandment of God , so Paul is not using the term "circumcision" the way you think he is, He is meaning it as a cultural and religious identifier.

    Becoming Jewish would be to assume a cultural heritage that is uniquely Jewish , that would be silly to try to do unless you were in fact Jewish by birth or adoption or something like that.

    Yet he is very clear , the weightier matter is keeping the commandments of God.


    House of Joseph
    There are at least 10+ other tribes , that comprise Northern Israel that are the exiles of Israel ... Generally known as the tribes of Ruben, Simeon, Dan , Naphtali , Issachar, Asher, Gad , Zebulen, Joseph ( Ephraim and Manasseh ) None of these tribes would be considered to be Jewish , they are referred to as the House of Joseph , Israel , or Ephraim. They are Israelite , just not Jewish.

    Regarding Act 15

    The question was what the " non- Jews" had to do to be saved. The Believing Pharisees insisted they had to keep the customs of Moses and be circumcised to be saved.

    Young's literal



    Act 15:1 And certain having come down from Judea, were teaching the brethren -- `If ye be not circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye are not able to be saved;'

    The Greek word used for custom is Ethos not nomos ( law )...

    This is an important distinction from following the instructions of the Torah. The Pharisees had added volumes of commandments and heavy burdens beyond the Torah and exalted themselves and their own teachings above the written word of God. They still do today, it is called the Oral Torah, a separate set of man made laws and traditions codified in various writings; the Jerusalem Talmud or the Babylonian Talmud. Regardless they are additions to the Torah.


    Deu 12:32
    What thing so ever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

    Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

    These additions of commandments were expressly forbidden in the Torah, so the "Jews" , both Pharisees and Rabbis have broken this commandment by their traditions and additions to the law. And Yeshuah was very clear in his Words and Actions; he didn't follow or endorse their traditions or additions, and called them on it several times in the Gospels.

    Mat 23:4 for they bind together burdens heavy and grievous to be borne, and lay upon the shoulders of men, but with their finger they will not move them.

    Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

    Back to Acts 15 , the question is “ what” must the gentiles do to be saved? The Pharisees proposed they must be circumcised after the customs of Moses. You have to take into account who is asking the question. It was “Certain” of the sect of the Pharisees (The Separated ones.)

    Act 15:5 and there rose up certain of those of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying -- `It behoveth to circumcise them, to command them also to keep the law of Moses.'

    You have to understand these are the same group of People that Paul took to task in Galatians, and Paul was once a Pharisee himself. They don’t keep Torah themselves, but make thousands of rules in addition to the Torah, and many of those traditions violate the Torah. Just because they believed Yeshua was the Messiah didn’t change their doctrines and sense of authority. They wanted to Yoke, the new converts into Pharisaical Judaism, which included the Oral Torah (doctrines of men), and the written Torah, the law of Moses.

    Do you have to do that to be saved? No, you have to receive the free gift of Yehovah, and trust in the name of his Messiah, Yeshua. You don’t have to keep the rules and regulations of men, or keep Torah to be saved; salvation is a gift of God. However, is that the end or our journey? No it is not, and it wasn’t the end of the journey for those Gentiles believers either.

    act 15:10 now, therefore, why do ye tempt God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

    The burdens and the "Yoke" ( teachings ) of Pharisaical Judaism were not the Torah of Yehovah , it was the doctrines and the teachings of the Pharisees.

    James has more instructions
    Act 15:19 wherefore I judge: not to trouble those who from the nations do turn back to God,
    Act 15:20 but to write to them to abstain from the pollutions of the idols, and the whoredom, and the strangled thing; and the blood;
    Act 15:21 for Moses from former generations in every city hath those preaching him -- in the synagogues every sabbath being read.'

    These new converts are turning back to God, they have begun a process in which the Holy Spirit is leading them , through their new High Priest Yeshua, not a group of Pharisees , who in all honesty have a lot of unlearning to do themselves. James tells the gentiles to abstain from things that would make them unclean , so that they can go hear the Torah on the Sabbath , in the synagogues . By the way this is how a proselyte would be treated. That is James is treating them as babes and converts , and opening the door for them to learn and grow in knowledge and grace , while hearing Moses being read.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzy View Post
    wow. what a very strange thread.

    youd think that by just reading Acts 15 would clear this up, you know, paul and the first jerusalem council? pauls ministry was to the gentiles. there were some in the early church who felt that non-jewish christians must first become jewish in order to be christian, in order to be saved.

    this was in direction opposition to what paul believed and preached. paul did NOT preach the torah to the gentiles.

    there was quite a bit of discussion at the first jerusalem council, but it was prayed over and the Holy sprit was sought.

    pauls ministry was accepted, the apostles and elders agreed that gentiles did NOT have to become jewish or follow old covenant laws and the instructions for the gentiles were given in a letter sent out.

    starting with Acts 15:5 you can see for yourself that it was cleared up then that gentiles were not required to be circumscised or follow mosic law.

    Peter: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

    James : “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21


    the apostles and elders sent a letter to the churches that stated:
    "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."

    now....if some folk feel its right to follow mosiac law as tho it helps them be more godly, more power to them, have at it.

    but it is clear, from the very beginning, that NO ONE has the right or authority or power to demand or expect non-jews to follow mosaic laws or become jewish in order to be a christian, nor to castigate those who do not follow mosiac laws in following Christ Jesus.

    Peter, James, John, Paul, --None of the apostles or elders of the church taught that.

    None.

    seems pretty clear to me. and simple.
    Jazzy,

    You are 100% correct. We have debated this very subject many times. As I recall each one ended because the mods had to step in after repeated attacks by a few who hold a position of law over love. Each time there were timeouts or bans. It looks like the anonymous coward is a retread of a person who was banned so expect this thread to continue to be ugly.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzy View Post



    starting with Acts 15:5 you can see for yourself that it was cleared up then that gentiles were not required to be circumscised or follow mosic law.

    Peter: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

    James : “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21


    the apostles and elders sent a letter to the churches that stated:
    "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things."

    now....if some folk feel its right to follow mosiac law as tho it helps them be more godly, more power to them, have at it.

    but it is clear, from the very beginning, that NO ONE has the right or authority or power to demand or expect non-jews to follow mosaic laws or become jewish in order to be a christian, nor to castigate those who do not follow mosiac laws in following Christ Jesus.

    .
    You do realize that abstaining from blood, strangled animals, and sexual immorality are straight from the "Mosaic" Law, don't you?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Son of George View Post
    Jazzy,

    You are 100% correct. We have debated this very subject many times. As I recall each one ended because the mods had to step in after repeated attacks by a few who hold a position of law over love. Each time there were timeouts or bans. It looks like the anonymous coward is a retread of a person who was banned so expect this thread to continue to be ugly.
    I don't know who you think I am, but it doesn't really matter. May I call your attention to the fact that it was I who was called names in this thread. I have not made this thread "ugly" in any fashion whatsoever. I keep getting accused of being someone else via some very strange remarks. One minute we're discussing the OP, the next I'm being called a "troll" for absolutely no reason.

    If anyone has made this "ugly" as you put it, it has not been myself.

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