Bethel: Con't You Yet See That The Seven Last Times Were Over long, Long Ago?

[Forty9er]

"Yes, WORKS. I've been JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD, and now I am told to WALK, even as He walked.

You don't answer the direct questions I ask seeking to better understand exactly what you believe. All you do is go back to your talking points. Is it too scary for you to actually discuss the details of what you believe and tell me what you think critical verses mean?

The nonsense of your religion mocks that I do the same things Messiah did."

Then it becomes a matter of progression after justification for a true follower of Messiah

And then we have the put downs and accusations that are always in your posts. You are always implying that anyone who doesn't follow the Law as you do isn't a "true follower of Messiah". I don't go out of my way to confront you but you seem compelled to interject your accusations into threads that I am involved in.

If you believe in justification by faith in Christ alone, as you say you do, then I accept you as a brother in Christ, no matter what differences we have in how we are to walk after justification. But I don't think you are willing to say the same about me.

[Off-Grid Organics]

You don't answer the direct questions

But you accusing me of trying to earn justification is OK, when I had clearly said otherwise. Sheesh. And I am the one responsible for 'put downs'? I've asked you many question that you ignore. One was what did YOU repent FROM? Was is SIN, or did you have some other thing in mind when you repented?

[Off-Grid Organics]

I don't go out of my way to confront you but you seem compelled to interject your accusations into threads that I am involved in.

I never addressed you UNTIL you interjected into my response to watchman. Post 13. Quit trying to play the victim. It's quite unbecoming. I was simply adding to what watchman had previously posted, but that was too much for you to bear, so you jumped in.

[Forty9er]

I've asked you many question that you ignore. One was what did YOU repent FROM? Was is SIN, or did you have some other thing in mind when you repented?

That isn't a real question seeking to understand what I believe. It is only a rhetorical question that you already know the answer to and all you are doing is trying to lead me down the path so you can spring your go to verse on me, 1John 3:4. But you should already know that I don't accept your understanding of that verse so your "question" isn't to try to start a real discussion, it is only your attempt to try to trap me.

I never addressed you UNTIL you interjected into my response to watchman. Post 13. Quit trying to play the victim. It's quite unbecoming. I was simply adding to what watchman had previously posted, but that was too much for you to bear, so you jumped in.

Watchman and I were discussing Daniel's prophecy and the possibility of a future Temple until you jumped in and tried to turn the discussion to "torahlessness". And, out of context, here is your poke in the eye at me:

The man of 'torahlessness'' sounds like an individual evil person. But as I read about the ''torahless'' man, a completely different picture formed in my mind because now I can see a host of people who reject Torah.

You know what I believe about the Law so that is your attempt to associate me with the antichrist. So don't act like "Who, me? I didn't do anything".

And as I suspected, you aren't willing to make the same statement to me about our common ground as I did about you. But that just makes sense because how can you call someone your brother if he is really in league with the antichrist.

[Off-Grid Organics]

That isn't a real question seeking to understand what I believe. It is only a rhetorical question that you already know the answer to and all you are doing is trying to lead me down the path so you can spring your go to verse on me, 1John 3:4. But you should already know that I don't accept your understanding of that verse so your "question" isn't to try to start a real discussion, it is only your attempt to try to trap me.

It was a very real question and not designed to trap you. It says what it says and I have asked tons of folks the same thing over the years. All I usually get is a runaround, with others it is a reality shock.



Watchman and I were discussing Daniel's prophecy and the possibility of a future Temple until you jumped in and tried to turn the discussion to "torahlessness". And, out of context, here is your poke in the eye at me:

I was responding to watchman; agreeing with the basis of his seventy-weeks assessment. If your eye got poked over my assessment, that's on you. This was an OPEN thread, after all.



You know what I believe about the Law so that is your attempt to associate me with the antichrist. So don't act like "Who, me? I didn't do anything".

And as I suspected, you aren't willing to make the same statement to me about our common ground as I did about you. But that just makes sense because how can you call someone your brother if he is really in league with the antichrist.

I have been praying about that. The fact is, I don't know you well enough about your walk with Messiah. So I defer to the word on the matter.

Act 26:20 but declared first to those in Dammeseq and in Yerushalayim, and in all the country of Yehuḏah, and to the nations, that they should repent, and turn to Elohim, and do works worthy of repentance

2Ti 2:19 However, the solid foundation of Elohim stands firm, having this seal, “יהוה knows those who are His,” Num_16:5 and, let everyone who names the Name of Messiah turn away from unrighteousness.

Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the desire of My Father who is in the heavens is My brother and sister and mother

Mat 12:50 “For whoever does the desire of My Father who is in the heavens is My brother and sister and mother

Luk 8:21 And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Elohim and doing it.

1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands.a Footnote: aSee 1Jn_3:6.
1Jn 2:4 The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Elohim has been perfectedb in him. By this we know that we are in Him.c Footnotes b Gen_17:1, Psa_119:1, Mat_5:48. cSee 1Jn_3:24.
1Jn 2:6 The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked.
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Master, Master,’ shall enter into the reign of the heavens, but he who is doing the desire of My Father in the heavens.
Mat 7:22 “Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’
Mat 7:23 “And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’c Psa_6:8. Footnote: cSee Mat_7:15, and also Mat_13:41-42.

2Co 11:14 And no wonder! For Satan himself masquerades as a messenger of light!
2Co 11:15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness,c whose end shall be according to their works!d Footnotes: cSee Mat_7:15-23, 2Pe_2:1-22. dSee Mat_13:41-42.

Act 5:32 “And we are His witnesses to these matters, and so also is the Set-apart Spirit whom Elohim has given to those who obey Him.”c Footnote: cSee also 1Jn_3:24.

So forgive me if I am unable to make the call ONLY ABBA can truly make. I don't know you well enough, heck, I don't even know if you claim His covenant. Do you?

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall make a renewed covenant with the house of Yisra’ěl and with the house of Yehuḏah,a Footnote: a Heb_8:8-12, Heb_10:16-17.
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I strengthenedb their hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares יהוה. Footnote: bCommonly understood as “take hold of.”
Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ěl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

[Off-Grid Organics]

you aren't willing

Some simply need retaught.

ORACLES—the 4 uses of the word---
G3051 logion log'-ee-on; an utterance (of YHUH): - oracle.

The Words spoken by YHUH at Sinai (TORAH), received by our fathers to give to US…

Act 7:38 “This is he who was in the assembly in the wilderness with the Messenger who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers, who received the living Words (ORACLES-logion) to give to us,

TORAH entrusted to Yehudah…

Rom 3:1-2 What then is the advantage of the Yehudite, or what is the value of the circumcision? Much in every way! Because firstly indeed, that they were entrusted with the Words (ORACLES-logion) of Elohim.

We are to speak the words of TORAH…

1Pe 4:11 If anyone speaks, let it be as the Words (ORACLES-logion) of Elohim. If anyone serves, let it be as with the strength which Elohim provides, so that Elohim might be praised in it all through יהושע Messiah, to whom belong the esteem and the rule forever and ever. Amĕin.

If you are not teaching TORAH, you need to be taught the basics to wean you off of the milk before you can eat anything solid, because you are still an inexperienced baby, still unable to discern between good and evil, clean/unclean, etc…

Heb 5:12-14 For indeed, although by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first elements of the Words (ORACLES-logion) of Elohim. And you have become such as need milk and not solid food. For everyone partaking of milk is inexperienced in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food is for the mature whose senses have been trained by practice to discern both good and evil.
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Isa 8:20 To the Torah and to the witness! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no light in them!

[Forty9er]

It was a very real question and not designed to trap you. It says what it says and I have asked tons of folks the same thing over the years. All I usually get is a runaround, with others it is a reality shock.

I have talked to many Christians over the years and I don't think I have ever asked, or would ever ask anyone what they had repented of. By asking that question you are either trying to get them to confess some horrible sins to you or you would just expect them to say "sins" in general. I can't think of any true Christian, who I would define as someone who has placed their personal faith in Christ to save them from their sins, who would respond in some other way, like they couldn't think of anything they had repented of.

If the "tons" of folks you have asked that question to have said something significantly different, I suspect you are asking people who are "Christian" in name only, like those who may attend church occasionally just so they can fit in with the crowd.

If the question you are asking them is really what has changed in their life after they became a Christian, you might get a different range of responses. Given what I know about your one track mind set, I imagine you would expect any true follower of Messiah would respond by saying that they repented of working on the Sabbath, eating ham sandwiches, not observing the feasts, etc. since from what you have said in your posts it seems like those kinds of things are what are important and identify a true follower of Messiah.

On the other hand, I don't think I have ever heard you question someone about whether they are a true follower of Messiah if they don't show love for their neighbor like they love themselves, or if they take the Lord's name in vain, or if they tell "white" lies, or occasionally take home a few small things from their employer, or exaggerate a little on their taxes, or get a little drunk on occasion.

Did you know that in all the NT following the death of Christ, Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are not once specifically commanded to observe the Sabbath or criticized for not observing it? Not in Acts 15 or anywhere else. That is pretty amazing given the large number of pagan Gentiles who converted to Christ who would have no knowledge or only limited knowledge of the requirements of the Law. The same thing is true for the feasts. Not once is anyone commanded specifically to observe any one of them, including the Passover.

But the NT clearly condemns swearing, lying, stealing, drunkenness, sexual immorality and many other sins. But apparently those aren't the sins you think are important enough for you to tell whether a person is a "true follower of Messiah".

So forgive me if I am unable to make the call ONLY ABBA can truly make. I don't know you well enough, heck, I don't even know if you claim His covenant. Do you?

I am not familiar with what you are asking, "claim His covenant". If you are talking about the New Covenant, it isn't a matter of claiming it. Anyone who has placed their faith in Christ receives the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and is forgiven, justified and given eternal life and becomes part of the New Covenant.

[Off-Grid Organics]

Did you know that in all the NT following the death of Christ, Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are not once specifically commanded to observe the Sabbath or criticized for not observing it? Not in Acts 15 or anywhere else. That is pretty amazing given the large number of pagan Gentiles who converted to Christ who would have no knowledge or only limited knowledge of the requirements of the Law. The same thing is true for the feasts. Not once is anyone commanded specifically to observe any one of them, including the Passover.

Sabbath was a given. Period. They observed Sabbath and the Feast days; Messiah was their example and they were instructed to follow in His steps. We went over this in Acts 15 about those TURNING to Messiah and them coming each SABBATH to learn more torah.

Act 15:19 “Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the nations who are TURNING to Elohim,

Act 15:20 but that we write to them to abstain from the defilements of idols,a and from whoring,b and from what is strangled,c and from blood.d Footnotes: a Exo_22:20, Lev_17:7, Deu_32:17, Deu_32:21, 1Co_10:14, 1Co_10:20-21. b Num_25:1-3, Lev_17:7. c Gen_9:4, Eze_33:25 (Strangled - One way of eating meat with blood) Pro_21:25. d Lev_17:10-14.

Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”

Act 13:42 And when the Yehuḏim went out of the congregation, the nations begged to have these words spoken to them the next Sabbath.

Act 13:44 And on the next Sabbath almost all the city came together to hear the Word of Elohim.

Of course the Feasts were a given also...imagine if they would NOT have been honoring them so many years after He was impaled:

Act 2:1 And when the Day of the Festival of Shaḇuʽotha had come, they were all with one mind in one place. Footnote: aWeeks.

1Co_5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

You seem to think everything has to be a rewritten command to be valid rather than observing the obvious behavior and evidence.

[Off-Grid Organics]

I am not familiar with what you are asking, "claim His covenant". If you are talking about the New Covenant, it isn't a matter of claiming it. Anyone who has placed their faith in Christ receives the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and is forgiven, justified and given eternal life and becomes part of the New Covenant.

I tried to make it clear...

I don't even know if you claim His covenant. Do you?

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall make a renewed covenant with the house of Yisra’ěl and with the house of Yehuḏah,a Footnote: a Heb_8:8-12, Heb_10:16-17.

Jer 31:32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I strengthenedb their hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares יהוה. Footnote: bCommonly understood as “take hold of.”

Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ěl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

So, this is the covenant you claim? I say claim because many claim it, yet deny what it says.

[Forty9er]

Sabbath was a given. Period.

Like if you say it, it is true, no questions permitted. That's not going to happen. It's laughable that you would think that all of these truly pagan Gentiles just automatically know to observe the Sabbath without being instructed, and not just know what day to observe but know exactly what they can and can't do. Even today, Jews argue about what is and isn't permitted so to say that it was just a given for those pagans is a joke.

If the Sabbath was a given, certainly the sin of idolatry would also be a given. But idolatry is condemned in 11 verses in the NT. Murder is condemned in 12 verses. Sexual immorality is condemned in 25 verses. There is a reason that God's revealed Word in the NT doesn't command Sabbath observance and the answer is that Christians today are not commanded to keep it (Rom 14:5-6).

Of course the Feasts were a given also...imagine if they would NOT have been honoring them so many years after He was impaled:

Act 2:1 And when the Day of the Festival of Shaḇuʽotha had come, they were all with one mind in one place. Footnote: aWeeks.

This is just a few weeks after the Christ's death, not years later. And this is just an observation of the day not a command or instruction to observe the feast.

1Co_5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

That is a disingenuous example to use for observing Passover. Anyone can see that it is strictly a figurative language reference to Passover. The previous verse says Christ is our Passover lamb and HAS BEEN sacrificed. Since that occurred only once for all, there is no other lamb to be sacrificed for Passover. And do you serve the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth in your Passover observance?

I tried to make it clear...

I don't even know if you claim His covenant. Do you?

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall make a renewed covenant with the house of Yisra’ěl and with the house of Yehuḏah,a Footnote: a Heb_8:8-12, Heb_10:16-17.

Jer 31:32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I strengthenedb their hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares יהוה. Footnote: bCommonly understood as “take hold of.”

Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ěl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

So, this is the covenant you claim? I say claim because many claim it, yet deny what it says.

First, it is not a "renewed covenant" but a NEW covenant. If you can't discern that it is a new covenant from Jer 31:32 which says it is "not like" the old covenant, then Hebrews makes it perfectly clear:

Heb 7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Heb 7:18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness
Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:20 And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath,
Heb 7:21 but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​“The Lord has sworn ​​​​​​​and will not change his mind, ​​​​​​​‘You are a priest forever.’” ​​​
Heb 7:22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

Not only is it a new covenant but a changed covenant and a better covenant. In no way is it a renewed covenant. So the Law that God writes on the heart is NOT the Old covenant Law. That probably answers your question.