Scofieldism

[Rob_0126]

That seems to be your answer for everything. I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it for me. I'm not as accepting of what someone says on the internet without some other form of proof. And if you can't provide me with specific examples or answers then it doesn't seem like you know the subject very well and are just accepting what he is saying.

It's a good thing that I don't have to prove anything to you.
All I am doing is presenting what a pastor, that was well versed in scripture, and filled with the Holy Ghost, had to say on Scofield and his doctrine. This is why I posted links to his Sermons, and not given a commentary on it, because it is a whole lot to cover.

He knew it well because he had taught scofieldism for 12 years, and I have no reason to believe he would make all of this up.

In fact, the internet search links I posted in this thread, show that scofield was no where near a Godly man, but a liar, adulterer, and a deceiver. Would you trust a man with scripture that did such things, while he was supposedly walking with God?

And no, I did not attend a seminary, so Im not well versed on theological jargon.
Btw, can you show where you have to be taught at a seminary, in the bible?

I rely on the Lord God Almighty to teach me and to lead me to the truth, thru His Word.

It seems that almost every crazy theory you can imagine has been presented on the internet like it has been "proven" when actually the opposite is true.

What 'crazy' theory are you talking about specifically?

And the fact that he is a pastor doesn't exempt him from the same initial scrutiny and skepticism.

Your right, and I have called him out in a sense for a few things I believe he got wrong. I mentioned it to his widowed wife, because I believe if you don't line up with scripture, then you are wrong, regardless of who you are.

Nobody is 100% right all the time. Are you?

This particular deal on scofield, I agree on, because he proves the error with Scripture.

But of course, it's convenient for you to not listen, so as to have your plausible ignorance in this matter. You make your accusations without hearing what the man had to say. (Proverbs 18:13 - "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.")

Are you afraid that he is right?

Absolutely true and I have never said anything different. Not only that but I have been recently arguing that point in the Chapel. And you are wrong if you think that dispensationalism teaches that Jews will be saved without Jesus Christ. It sounds like you have been watching John Hagee too much, although I think he has denied he agrees with Dual Covenant Theology, which is what you are describing. But Dual Covenant Theology is definitely not a part of dispensationalism.

I believe John Hagee is a heretic.

And no, I don't agree with 'dual covenant theology'. I believe the Old & New Testament are both the Word of God.
The only thing that changed was the covenant, and practices that went along with it. (Malachi 3:6 - "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.")
The God of the OT is the God of the NT.

Jesus became our passover lamb. Their are no more sacrifices of animals for sins. To continue on with the old covenant, is to blaspheme the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.
What the people of the state of Israel are doing is all in vain. They must enter by the door: Jesus Christ.
(John 10:1 - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.")

[Forty9er]

This particular deal on scofield, I agree on, because he proves the error with Scripture.

This discussion is really going nowhere. You can't tell me specifically what his "error" is and I'm not interested in listening to several hours of recordings by someone who got the basic facts about Margaret MacDonald wrong. And people "prove" many things using Scripture but that doesn't mean they are all true.

I think almost all of this false narrative regarding the origin of the rapture doctrine can be traced to books written by Dave MacPherson who had an agenda he wanted to push which conflicted with the truth. If you are really interested in the truth you should read the following:

http://www.according2prophecy.org/macphers.html

http://www.raptureready.com/dave-macpherson/

[Rob_0126]

This discussion is really going nowhere. You can't tell me specifically what his "error" is and I'm not interested in listening to several hours of recordings by someone who got the basic facts about Margaret MacDonald wrong.

Your quick to dismiss a brother in Christ's warning, of why a man that is held in high regard by many Christians today(scofield), was a liar, adulterer, and a great deceiver.
He's trying to warn other brothers and sisters in Christ about that man and his teachings, but you are quick to dismiss what he had to say, using a miniscule excuse.

Are you always right?

Bro Meyer did this set of sermons in 1996. Apparently he did not have access to the information that is available now, 21 years later.
(Researching, Apparently Joseph Mede talked about a rapture in the 1600s)

And people "prove" many things using Scripture but that doesn't mean they are all true.

What other source of truth is there, other than the Word of God, in this world?
With that train of logic, how do we know your 'interpretation' of scripture is true?

Bro Meyer was not a liar. If he made a mistake, he admitted it, just as he admitted the deception of scofieldism, which he preached for over 12 years before.

I think almost all of this false narrative regarding the origin of the rapture doctrine can be traced to books written by Dave MacPherson who had an agenda he wanted to push which conflicted with the truth. If you are really interested in the truth you should read the following:

http://www.according2prophecy.org/macphers.html

http://www.raptureready.com/dave-macpherson/

I thought you said we shouldn't just accept all 'proofs' that we get from the internet?

One of Bro Meyer's source of information on scofield, is from a book called 'The Incredible Scofield and his Book' by Joseph M Canfield.
Another was 'Backgrounds to Dispensationalism' by Clarence B. Bass.

Then Bro Meyer, using scripture, blows holes all in scofields doctrine. This is why you must listen to the sermons, to get the whole picture. Bro Meyer explains it better than I can.

The whole reason I posted this, was to expose who scofield truly was.

Would you want an adulterer, thief, or liar, to interpret the Bible for you?

[Forty9er]

Your quick to dismiss a brother in Christ's warning, of why a man that is held in high regard by many Christians today(scofield), was a liar, adulterer, and a great deceiver.
He's trying to warn other brothers and sisters in Christ about that man and his teachings, but you are quick to dismiss what he had to say, using a miniscule excuse.

As I said before, I am not here to defend Scofield because first, dispensationalism doesn't depend on him, and second, I don't know the actual facts about him. But what I do know is that there are many people who would love to slander him to try to discredit the rapture and dispensationalism.

Bro Meyer did this set of sermons in 1996. Apparently he did not have access to the information that is available now, 21 years later.
(Researching, Apparently Joseph Mede talked about a rapture in the 1600s)

Yes, Joseph Mede taught the rapture along with others as far back as the 300's AD. All that Meyer most likely did was read one of MacPherson's books and just accepted it as the truth without doing any other research.

I thought you said we shouldn't just accept all 'proofs' that we get from the internet?

I didn't call those references "proofs" did I? They provide information that you can independently verify to find what the truth actually is.

Then Bro Meyer, using scripture, blows holes all in scofields doctrine. This is why you must listen to the sermons, to get the whole picture. Bro Meyer explains it better than I can.

Yes, just listen to these recordings and it will explain everything. Very similar to what the people who believe the earth is flat say - "just watch this video and it will prove that the earth is flat". And when you watch the video you find out that it proves nothing. That is one of the crazy ideas I was talking about that had been "proven".

The whole reason I posted this, was to expose who scofield truly was.

Yes, you called Scofield a freemason and you can't produce any evidence that he actually was. And then based on that you confidently say he worshiped Satan. And when I searched the internet to try to find out if any of that was true I can find no facts which support those claims only unsupported speculation, innuendo, and guilt by association.

If that is what you call the truth about Scofield I want no part of it.

[Rob_0126]

As I said before, I am not here to defend Scofield because first, dispensationalism doesn't depend on him, and second, I don't know the actual facts about him. But what I do know is that there are many people who would love to slander him to try to discredit the rapture and dispensationalism.

So again, you judge Bro Meyer's entire sermon series, based on a short segment of the 1st sermon, out of 11.

Slander is a false tale or report about someone. If it's the truth, then it's not slander.

And btw, where is your thread about the pre-trib rapture being true? I couldn't find it.

If you knew someone was deceiving you, would you want someone to tell you, or just ignore it and believe the lies?

Yes, Joseph Mede taught the rapture along with others as far back as the 300's AD. All that Meyer most likely did was read one of MacPherson's books and just accepted it as the truth without doing any other research.

I believe that at the time, that was all the information brother Meyer had on it. He was a diligent researcher of information.

I didn't call those references "proofs" did I? They provide information that you can independently verify to find what the truth actually is.

The insinuation was so to me, but you like to play word games, to create doubt in other readers minds, to derail the thread, as it seems. Is that your intention?

Yes, just listen to these recordings and it will explain everything. Very similar to what the people who believe the earth is flat say - "just watch this video and it will prove that the earth is flat". And when you watch the video you find out that it proves nothing. That is one of the crazy ideas I was talking about that had been "proven".

Theirs a big difference in a flat earth video made by a kid, and a 22+ yr preacher of the gospel, explaining his findings on a doctrine he use to teach, but found crafty errors in it, and wanted to warn others about it.

I did not say he explains 'everything'. From what research he did on scofield, he explains what he found out, to be important to the Christians who hold that man up in high regard, to this very day. He also goes into scripture to disprove what scofield taught.

A question: Do you believe the King James Bible is the infallible Word of God?

Yes, you called Scofield a freemason and you can't produce any evidence that he actually was. And then based on that you confidently say he worshiped Satan. And when I searched the internet to try to find out if any of that was true I can find no facts which support those claims only unsupported speculation, innuendo, and guilt by association.

If that is what you call the truth about Scofield I want no part of it.

You wanted a summary of what was being taught in the sermons, and I gave it. Then you go on to ask for proof, and ignore listening to what the preacher had to say about the matter, because apparently you got your feelings hurt.

Brother Meyer shows how he was a freemason, by the people he associated with (Proverbs 13:20), and by perception. But you would have to listen to what he found out, to know this.

Brother Meyer knew well about witchcraft, because he was a witch before he came to Christ. He knew what to look for.

He had at least 1 freemason that turned to Christ, in his church, and received a lot of freemasonry material to research on. Also, the knowledge the ex-mason had in the craft(1st hand knowledge).

And btw, anyone who changes the Word of God, does worship satan by default. Your either in Christ, or in the World.



This all being said, why not be helpful to this thread and listen to the series, then make your findings, and be helpful, instead of devisive?

Otherwise, move on and let folks here listen for themselves and add equity to the thread, instead of trying to derail it.

ADD: Here is an interesting article on the biography of Joseph M Canfield, that wrote 'The incredible Scofield and his book'. It's eye opening, and shows the reason behind why he wrote the book to begin with.

An excerpt from Joseph M Canfield's(a baptist) biography:
(The highlighted words are by me, to point something out)

"Simply put, when a person begins to research this man, the most incredible facts begin to show up. At the outbreak of the American Civil War, Cyrus I. Scofield enlisted on May 20, 1861 in the Confederate Army and served with the 7^th Regiment of the Tennessee infantry. Twelve years later Scofield committed perjury when he took an oath to become the United States District Attorney for Kansas and stated that he had never voluntarily born arms against the United States. (Liar)
Scofield did not last very long as a District Attorney, and by 1877, he was making a living on scams and writing bogus checks.(Thief) He was taken to court several times and even served jail time.

Prior to his time as a district attorney, Cyrus had married a Roman Catholic woman by the name of Leontine. They had two girls, Abigail and Helene. About the time he resigned as a district attorney, Cyrus abandoned his family, leaving his wife to support herself and their two girls(Infidel-1 Tim 5-8 ). Eventually the marriage was dissolved in divorce. Fundamental Christians are very hardnosed on divorce, and if a minister’s marriage ends in divorce, the minister will be forced to resign and barred from being in the ministry. Scofield’s supporters ignored this matter and kept it a secret for a long time in order to make Cyrus Scofield a licensed minister of the Gospel. While Cyrus was still legally married to Leontine, he began to date a young woman in his congregation by the name of Hettie Van Wark(Adulterer). They were married on March 11, 1884.

The Bible version that bears his name is a tainted version produced by two British clergymen, Westcott and Hort(satanists). These men are hailed as Bible scholars, but what is not brought out is the fact that both men were devoted Satanists and very active in occult rituals during their lifetime. The Devil must laugh his head off every time he thinks back on this coup. Think about it, the Fundamental Christians in the United States preach out of a Bible that Satan’s disciple’s doctored up and perverted. Here is a quote from page two of the Introduction to the 1945 Scofield Bible edition: “….The discovery of the Sinaitic MS, and the labours in the field of textual criticism of such scholars as …..Westcott and Hort, have cleared the Greek Textus Receptus of minor inaccuracies…..”(So the kjv and tyndales source of translations had error?)

Is Scofield the man you want teaching you about the Bible?

[Forty9er]

And btw, where is your thread about the pre-trib rapture being true? I couldn't find it.

I couldn't find it either. It was a few months ago and it seems to have disappeared out of the Chapel and I couldn't find it with a search.

The insinuation was so to me, but you like to play word games, to create doubt in other readers minds, to derail the thread, as it seems. Is that your intention?

I don't play word games. I never said or implied those references were proofs. Contrary to what you seem to believe you don't prove anything by reading or listening to one or two people's opinion.

My intention is to question the truth of what you claim about Scofield and to challenge you to produce actual proof of what you are saying. If what Meyer says can't be verified by independent facts then all it amounts to is slander of a person who is no longer alive to defend himself.

[Rob_0126]

Here is some photos, if anyone would consider that proof enough.
http://poweredbychrist.homestead.com...s/scofield.htm

Typewritten copy of the divorce decree - -->Image

His first wife's grave stone, that he didn't mention about for years -->Image

But, if you need source cited proof,
Here is a long list of excerpts from a thesis done on Scofield, in 2011, by D. Jean Rushing, with sources cited:

...After settling the forgery charges in November 1879, the downtrodden Cyrus Scofield
visited a Washington Avenue mission in downtown St. Louis and found a new life in
Christianity.(221)

By 1880, Scofield rented room at 1000 Locust Street in St. Louis and pondered a
life in Christian ministry though he still referred to himself as married and his occupation as
lawyer.(222)

Separated from Cyrus Scofield for several years Leontine Cerré Scofield and her
daughters, Abigail and Helene, had returned the family home in Atchison, Kansas. Later that
year, the priest of St. Benedicts Church in Atchison confirmed Cyrus Scofield’s twelve-year-old
daughter, Abigail Scofield.(223)

The absent father did not attend this important event in his daughter’s religious life. Instead, Scofield “once in a great while” sent five dollars to the children while he cultivated a new life.(224)

Sources Cited:

221- B. Montlau to C.I. Scofield, 15 December 1920.

222 - 1880 St. Louis City Directory, St. Louis, Missouri, Ancestry.com (accessed 11 October 2011); and B.
Montlau, manuscript letter to C.I. Scofield, 15 December 15 1920, Central American Mission Papers, Non-Indexed,
Archives, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, North Carolina; 1880 Federal Census Record,
Carondolet, St. Louis, Missouri, Roll 715, Page 50C, Image 0520, Ancestry.com (accessed 11 October 2011).

223 - Certificate of Confirmation for Abigail Scofield, Canfield Papers, Box 4, Folder #9, Archives,
Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, North Carolina.

224 “Cyrus I. Schofield [sic] in the Role of a Congregational Minister.”

225 - Trumbull, 26.

Supposedly, scofield became born again around Nov, 1879, at a mission in downtown St. Louis.
Remind you, he separated from his 1st wife before conversion, but never reconciled it afterwards, and left his wife and children to fend for themselves.
Was he just a confused babe in Christ, or was it a false conversion?

As seems evident from their absence in the Life Story , Scofield also intended to keep his
marital status and the abandoned children hidden from his followers. Scofield kept up this
charade his entire life even though he and his daughters maintained limited contact until shortly
before his death in 1921.(227)

Source Cited:
227- Cyrus Scofield, manuscript letter to Abbie, 21 May 1921, CN014, Scofield Memorial Church Selected
Records, Series II, Folder 13, Archives, Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, Texas.

Later it is known that he didn't want people to know that his abandoned family was Roman Catholic.
But besides that, he pretty much abandoned his family for years.

In the Life Story, Dr. Scofield gave the impression that he remained unmarried until he and Hettie Wartz
married in Dallas in 1884.

source cited:

The Life Story book, by scofield

So he gave the impression he was never married before Hettie Wartz. What is apparent is that if the Christian community knew of this, they would have tossed him out on his ear. And 1 Timothy 5:8 would have disqualified him from his supposed ministry.

Goodell’s mentorship of Scofield led him to a preaching ministry in
downtown St. Louis and the St. Louis Association of Congregational Churches issued Scofield a
local preaching license in 1880. He organized Hyde Park Congregational Church and an East St.
Louis railroad meeting of the Y.M.C.A.(262)
Scofield’s downtown ministries and Bible studies with Rev. Goodell and Dr. Brookes kept him occupied until a he left St. Louis, Missouri permanently in the summer of 1882.

source cited:

262- Scharf, 1749, James M. Gray, “Testimonial to Rev. C.I. Scofield, D. D.,” Moody Bible Institute
Monthly, October 26, 1916, 550.

So, I take it Rev. Goodell and Dr. Brookes didn't know about Scofields continued abandonment of his wife and 2 children.
Otherwise, they wouldn't have given him a license to preach, and would have kicked him out on his ear for abandonment.

In the August 27, 1881, Topeka Daily Capital article, Leontine Scofield alluded to the
next step for their marriage, “I will gladly give him the matrimonial liberty he desires.”(270)

At this point, the couple had lived apart for at least four or five years if not longer. The following
month, Leontine Scofield signed a divorce petition claiming that Cyrus Scofield “for more than
one year…and a long time prior thereto absented himself from his said wife and children” and
alleged that the “minor children have all of their lives been under the care of this Plaintiff
[Leontine].”(271)

Acting as counsel for himself, Cyrus Scofield denied the allegations but inexplicably withdrew his appearance and asked the court to dismiss the petition, which the court dismissed on March 4, 1882.(272)

Cyrus Scofield and Leontine Scofield remained legally married but separated.

sources cited:

270- “Cyrus I. Schofield [sic] in the Role of a Congregational Minister.”

271- Petition, Court records from Case No. 2161 and 2681, filed in the District Court for Atchison County,
Canfield Papers, Box 4, Folders 7 and 31, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, North Carolina,
2.

272 - Answer and Motion and Order, Court records from Case No. 2161 and 2681, filed in the District Court
for Atchison County, Canfield Papers, Box 4, Folders 7 and 31, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake
Forest, North Carolina.

So it finally came out that he was separated, and abandoned his wife and 2 children.
His wife wanted a divorce but it was not granted, so he was still legally married.
Again, why was this guy allowed in the ministry?

Scofield remained at the First Congregational Church for nine months before by an offer of a permanent
pastorate at the Dallas church prompted his petition to the St. Louis Congregational Licensing Board for another preaching license.(273)
After much discussion and in a less than unanimous vote, the licensing board reinstated Scofield’s preaching license in April 1883.(274) There was still no change in Scofield’s marital status.

sources cited:

273 - Minutes, 11, Scofield Memorial Church Selected Records, CN014, Series I, Folder 4, Archives, Dallas
Theological Seminary, Dallas, Texas.
274 - “Various Topics.”

So, with his preaching license stripped, he was still preaching.
The board gave him a reinstatement of license to preach, even though he was still abandoning his wife and 2 children.
Is this a christian, or a false convert, or just a liar?

On October 1, 1883, Leontine Scofield filed essentially the same petition for divorce
from Cyrus Scofield. This time the divorce proceeded without objection and the court granted
the decree on December 8, 1883.(275)

The court found Cyrus Scofield guilty of “willful abandonment” and “enjoined Scofield from ever interfering with the custody of the children.”(276)

Consistent with her Catholic beliefs, after the court granted Mrs. Scofield a divorce on the
grounds of abandonment, she began calling herself a widow.(277)

sources cited:

275 - Petition and Order, Court records from Case No. 2161 and 2681, filed in the District Court for Atchison
County, Canfield Papers, Box 4, Folders 7 and 31, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, Wake Forest, North
Carolina.

276 - Order, Court records from Case No. 2161 and 2681, filed in the District Court for Atchison County,
Canfield Papers, Box 4, Folders 7 and 31, Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary.

277 - 1885 Kansas State Census, (accessed 11 October 2011) ancestory.com. No church records for Leontine
Scofield’s divorce from Cyrus Scofield were available but Leontine continued to receive certain Catholic rites after
the divorce. “Scofield Rites,” Atchison Daily Globe, November 7, 1936.

Finally, his abandoned wife got her divorce. Then he was found guilty of willful abandonment.
And yet, he was still preaching?!

A veiled hint found in one of Cyrus Scofield’s personal letters to a fellow Congregational
minister in Texas alluded to the final cause of the abandonment of Scofield’s family. In the
letter, Scofield expounded on his interpretation of several Bible passages relating to marriage and
divorce. Scofield elaborated extensively on what he called a “mixed marriage case” which he
defined as the marriage of a believer to an unbeliever.(284)

Though Scofield believed the Christian spouse could not terminate the marriage, he did express the belief that if an “unbelieving depart” then the believer was free to remarry.(285)

Scofield wrote, “how horrible a mixed marriage… He [Christ] does not regard it as properly a marriage at all—as if two Jews or two Christians.” (286)

sources cited:


284 - Cyrus Scofield to Frank Boyle, manuscript letter, 16 September 1890, C.I. (Cyrus Ingerson) Scofield
Papers, CN 001, Folder 1, Archives, Dallas Theological Seminary, Dallas, Texas.

285 - C. Scofield to F. Boyle, 16 September 1890.

286- C. Scofield to F. Boyle, 16 September 1890.

What a scoundrel!
He claimed that it was ok to abandon his wife and 2 children continually, after his conversion,
because she was a unbeliever??
What about the Children?? Did they deserve what he did?