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Making demands regarding behavior though should be differentiated from recognizing truth and sound doctrine.
Very much so...it's only revealed truth, given to us by grace through faith, that enables us to obey the law, and that as it is revealed...but revealed it is. Making demands regarding behavior isn't something I've seen coming from either camp (HR or anti HR) as a whole.
See, here is the elephant in the room. Somehow, some folks who believe that the OT law is somehow held by believers under Grace to be "passe', non-applicable or somehow untrue" is a total misunderstanding of what believers are saying and in fact believe.
I take that from my own experience, not from this board. A split just occurred in my home church because two leaders hold, among other things, that the law is ...quote..."a relic of the past"...and so deny that anyone pre-new covenant, save those specifically mentioned in scripture, had the Holy Spirit, or were really saved.
It's been hard for me to watch these struggles and disputes because most of the time I see that each side seems to be talking to a brick wall because of a blinder that seems to be placed over the eyes of the disputants with respect to what each seems to believe, especially those who cling to the old ways.
I see it as pretty much a two way street.
Scripture says Christ is a stumbling block. So true. Actually, though, it seems to me, that each believes the same thing, which is one of the greatest ironies I have ever experienced, because neither seems to understand that fact. The old is in the new and the new is in the old, it's just all the same now in Christ!!
Well, yeah, the same Christ that delivered the olivet discourse delivered the law/covenant to Moses on the Sinai. It was the same message then as it is now. The main message of the OT was always the gospel as was the law. The "slave woman" which represented Sinai, referred to the people under that covenant as much as the covenant itself. The law served two capacities, one for the righteous and one for the unregenerate, whereas the new covenant places the law only in the hearts of believers and excludes the unregenerate.
To the unregenerate, the law only pointed out sin. For the righteous, they had faith and the new covenant extended back in time to cover them then....because Christ was the seed and in the seed they held their hope.
We can never perfectly keep the law so that it had to be kept for us by the deity Himself. Actually it can't be any other way. Man's keeping of the law is just as impossible now as it was before Christ. Believing in Jesus does not imbue us with some supernatural ability to keep the law by ourselves at all times. Examine your conscience and know that is true.
Solomon stated that there is not a righteous man on earth that only does what is right and never sins. On the other hand, John is pretty clear on the need of the believer to cease from his sin. Sanctification is real and not fakery. God does not require things of us that are not achievable....so the question is, is keeping the law achievable? Moses seemed to think so when he said that what God has set before them is not too lofty or out of reach and is achievable. So, what is it to obey the law? I content that when the scripture states "for him that knows what is right to do and does not do it, to him it is sin" it shows that sins of ignoranc are nto attributed to us, but sins in knowledge are indeed attributed to our account. Is it possible to know the right thing to do and so do it? Yep. Is that what we do?...that may well be another story, but need it be so?
Jesus said the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. Further, if we are in Him, He is in us, then we are also in the Father and the Father is in us. Does it need to be more clear than that? Complicated and hard to grasp, especially with our self centered ego, certainly. But He who is in us also said "It is finished." No work is left. It is done. Yet we continue to ask what is our work and I see God shaking His Head and Sighing....like a longsuffering parent, so He says "Love Me with all your being". "Believe my Son" (This is my Son, in Him I am well pleased.) and "love your neighbor as yourself." This sums up thousands of years and millions of words, yet we continue to pick at each other over a fulfilled contract. If you want it hard, then keep trying to be perfect. Otherwise, be at peace and wait upon the Lord, please. Listen to the spirit and do as He directs and be at peace with each other and accept the Grace we are blessed with.
Interesting though that part of entering that rest includes "good works that He prepared from the foundation of the world that we should walk in them.
The rest spoken of in Hebrews and what Christ spoke of on the cross
has two OT references attached to it...one from the creation and one from the entering of Cannan from the wilderness. Titus ch 1 v 2 states that the hope of eternal life was promised by God from before the world began.
We see then that God placed his redemptive plan into the created order...in six days God created the heavens and the earth and on the seventh he rested. In that created order lies what is known as his rest. We do not then strive to create something new that he has not already created and made provision for (examples all through the law). It stands then that the works of faith spoken of in James and called saving faith were prepared from the foundation of the world for each one of us (wow, He was thinking of and planning for me even before the world was made). He planned out yours and my sanctification ahead of time...do you suppose in that, He planned and looked forward to us sinning in the same way that He planned out and looked forward to our good works of faith?
In one sense, yes He did, but only in the context of our sin being recognized as depravity and causing our repentance.
Saying that OT law has been fulfilled in no way diminishes it's validity, reality and continued importance. It is the
preface and the
pointer to the real story. As I've said before, fulfilling something does not make it disappear, only that it's purpose has been completed and summed up. The new has not diminished or denied or cast off the old by fulfilling it. In fulfilling it, has also incorporated it and embraced it and celebrates it. The entire OT law is a litany of pointers proving the rebelliousness of man (against the standards required by God), it defined sin and the lengths He goes to continue to reveal the Truth the Light and the Way that brings us into fellowship with Him. Embrace the law by accepting the gift of Grace and then do as the Holy Spirit counsels and directs. It may not always be the same for all men under Grace. The fact that the Lord describes His church as being a body is not just idle talk. Our bodies have millions of interconnected but individual purposes but having one head.
Excellent! and I might add that it is a system of markers and measures for the righteous as well. As God's spirit does it's work in us, and He shows us and teaches us His precepts/principles, then we recognize the context and righteousness of the law....and seeing obedience to it in ourselves does not make us righteous, but the Spirit's fruit brings us into conformity to it.
The whole gospel of Christ is not that we must follow the law. We can't. It is about us embracing the law in Him. He has done the work. It is left for us be beneficiaries of the Grace by His perfection and sacrifice.
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Originally Posted by grampster
We may have hijacked it, and that's fun. But I've certainly been edified by reading your responses. I have things rattling around in my head because of my journey. I enjoy writing them down and then having someone explain to me what I've written and if they make sense. Sometimes I don't even understand the meaning of what is rattling around in there. 