Christians and OT Law

[Wiskey Reb]

[

quote=Emily;1521465]Actually, that is not correct. First, what law did Adam and Eve break then?

Second, Paul actually said:
Galatians 3:19
Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

That is indeed correct. Are you saying that transgression is somehow something totally different than sin?


Concerning everything you posted below, what does any of it have to do with why the law was added?

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you.

1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

1 Timothy 1:9
9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

Romans 2:14
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.


Acts 15
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
12 The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’[b]—
18 things known from long ago.[c]
19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.

Romans 4:13
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

Matthew 19
The Rich and the Kingdom of God

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
18 “Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’[c] and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’[d]”
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

[/QUOTE]

[Emily]

[

That is indeed correct. Are you saying that transgression is somehow something totally different than sin?


Concerning everything you posted below, what does any of it have to do with why the law was added?

There was only one request God made of Adam and Eve- to trust Him and the evidence of that trust was that they did as He asked and not eat of the tree.

Satan presented them with the same choice every human being who has ever reached the age and mental capacity to discern right from wrong has - to choose to please self and be 'like' a god or to love and trust God and choose Him above self.

The law was given to help further define the perfection that God requires if you are going to be holiness enough for God's level of holiness.
Jesus made it clear in Matthew 19 that it still was not enough for the attempts of man to think they are holy by trying.

He also made it clear in Matthew 5 that all sin begins in the heart, in the mind. If you think lust, you have committed adultery, if you hate - you have murdered.

No human being can live up to the perfection of the law and that is why Jesus came and did what we cannot do.

Our righteousness and salvation is in Him alone.

We respond to His GIFT with our love for Him and others above self.

The problem the pharisees had and many people who hold to the law keeping have is that they think they have some level of holiness or righteousness in following the law and trample love on the floor of their works.

Our salvation is in our faith in Him - trusting Him - loving Him. Doing the opposite of what Adam and Eve tossed aside to satisfy the desires of their own hearts.

None of the patriarchs or women in the OT who were lifted up as holy by God were revered for their keeping of the law - they were held up by God because they trusted Him.

Noah was a drunk and yet he was the only one God saved from the flood - because He trusted God.

David was a man who (with God being outside of time) who broke just about every moral code out there and yet God called him a man after His own heart. Because David loved and trusted God.

Abraham was called God's friend and revered because Abraham trusted God.

I could go on but I think you get the idea.

Jesus said that all the laws were summed up in the two main commandments and if anyone did those, they fulfilled them all.

And I'm sorry you did not see the point I was making with the scriptures I posted. I will leave that in God's hands.

[Wiskey Reb]

Well Em, I still don't see how any of this relates to me being wrong about the law being given because of sin. You quoted that the law was given due to transgression, but I John clearly states that sin is the transgression of the law. You left it to the Lord, and I guess so will I.

I'm not sure where you're going drawing me in to this topic, but I guess I'll comment on o acouple of things.
[quote]

There was only one request God made of Adam and Eve- to trust Him and the evidence of that trust was that they did as He asked and not eat of the tree.

Well, that was not specifically stated, but I suppose I agree with it for the most part. To clarify though, that trust that was required was not a blind trust without knowledge. Although the teaching of the man at least appears to have been different from that of the woman, they both had the creation explained to them and thus had ample reason to trust God. They also both had the trees at the center of the garden explained to them and the consequence for disobeying explained as well.

If I understand where you're going, you're making a case for faith at the time of creation. I can buy that just fine....one difference we may have is the definition of faith. If I understand you, you perhaps define faith as trust. To me faith leads to trust, but that may be splitting hairs for the purpose of this discussion, I just don't know because I don't know where you're coming from with introducing the topic.

Satan presented them with the same choice every human being who has ever reached the age and mental capacity to discern right from wrong has - to choose to please self and be 'like' a god or to love and trust God and choose Him above self.

Agreed....

The law was given to help further define the perfection that God requires if you are going to be holiness enough for God's level of holiness.
Jesus made it clear in Matthew 19 that it still was not enough for the attempts of man to think they are holy by trying.

Hmmm, well, I see your point, but that cannot negate that Moses told them in giving the law that it was not too difficult for them or out of their reach.

Both passages have to be true, so we must align our beliefs with the course of thought that allows for both and sees them as complimentary.

I suggest that there is a way to look at the law that does not approach it from a standpoint of behavior modifiation, but from a perspective of understanding of principle that can only be perceived through the "transformation through the renewal of the mind". When we understand what makes a given command true, we can observe it in a way that is consistent with the holy spirit and the scripture. When I seek to unify OT with NT, this approach seems to best facilitate a view that the OT writers (like in Psalm 119) knew what they were talking about.

That said, Matthew 19 does not trump Matthew chapter 5 where Christ reaffirms the law. Instead, ch 19 clarifies that Moses was not condoning sin. If you look at what Moses said, he didn't require that a certificate of divorce be given...what he said was that anyone who gives his wife a certificate of divorce and she remarries, the first husband commits abomination if he lays with her again. This is still true. Jesus was not negating anything Moses said, but clarifying a common misperception about what Moses said. And correcting them for the idea that they thought they could put away thier wives for any reason.

No human being can live up to the perfection of the law and that is why Jesus came and did what we cannot do.

There are plenty who argue that full sanctification is possible, I understand the can of worms that opens up. I'll suffice to respond with two statements. First, it is humanly impossible to be infinate in purity and righteousness as is our Maker. No matter how good we can become, we are infinately different from Him. Second, there is such a thing as sanctification and it increasingly clear that an apostate arm of the christian arena is advocating a sanctificationless "gospel". The need to define what perfection means for the christian is imperative. Is it possible to cease from sin...to be perfect as He is perfect? We need to define what that means if it indeed is possible.

Our righteousness and salvation is in Him alone.

An eternal absolute!

We respond to His GIFT with our love for Him and others above self.

yep, and those two things cover every nook and cranny of the entire spectrum of human thought and activity and behavior.

The problem the pharisees had and many people who hold to the law keeping have is that they think they have some level of holiness or righteousness in following the law and trample love on the floor of their works.

That is by no means exclusive to those trying to follow the law. Self-righteousness has tentacles in every arena of human endevour...nor is it adequate to make a sweeping statement regarding the hearts of individuals in any group

Again, the "following" of the law can be done for a spectrum of reasons, self-righteousness only being one. Another reason may be that God's precepts, spoken of almost ad nauseum in Psalm 119, inform one of the rightness of a particular aspect of the law which results in obedience.

Even though Paul is clear that the law is not of faith, he also stated that it is not the hearers of the law that are just befor God, but the doers of the law that are just. The idea is that faith may lead us to obey the law, but obeying the law does not necessarily come from faith. faith results in obedience, but obedience does not necessitate faith....and without faith it is impossible to please God. I would argue that without faith it is impossible to obey the law. "The righteous man will live by faith".

Our salvation is in our faith in Him - trusting Him - loving Him. Doing the opposite of what Adam and Eve tossed aside to satisfy the desires of their own hearts.

Yes, yes, but faith is much more than is adequate to just call trust. What makes us believe and trust?.....evidence and substance. Faith is the substance of what is hoped for and the evidence of what is unseen. That is why faith without works is dead. Faith defined is the substance of what is hoped for....when we hope for something and receive the substance of it, what does that mean? It is the evidence of what is unseen....when we examine evidence and although we do not see the outcome (the substance) we can believe and hope that it is there. Works is when we step out and stand on the evidence, receive the substance and thus validate that our trust is not in vain. That is faith....saving faith. The works are trusting and obeying...that's it

So, how does the law come into play here? Simple, by using our faith, we are informed about how to conduct ourselves. When we are guided by the spirit to act in a certain way and then see the verification in the law, we rejoice. Or, when we look upon an aspect of the law, and apply our faith to it...God gives us understanding and we walk in it and also rejoice.

Remember Isaiah chapter 1? it says, "come let us reason together saith the Lord, though your sins are as scarlet they will be white as snow..." God wants us to get it, he wants us to understand. He wants to take our body mind and soul all along for the ride. that's why we can look at Solomon and see that when he says things like "with all thy getting get thee understanding" and all he says about wisdom, we can integrate it and see that it must also be true.

I get terribly discouraged when believers suggest that having understanding (human reason) is anathema...and that we are trying to make our own salvation through our own wisdom and understanding. When scripture says "trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding and He shall make straight your paths" it means that we do not know our future or the road ahead in life, but we must leave that in His hands and not try to make some path for ourselves....it is not referring to disengaging our minds.

Such folks rely very heavily on their ability to quote and recall scripture and validate scripture with scripture with fluid speed and agility. but often they don't perceive the meaning behind what is being said, they use scriptural terms withut stopping to inderstand the real definitions of those words.

None of the patriarchs or women in the OT who were lifted up as holy by God were revered for their keeping of the law - they were held up by God because they trusted Him.

They were held up as having faith and hope (interesting to define)....Abraham believed god and it was credited to him as righteousness. See above.

Jesus said that all the laws were summed up in the two main commandments and if anyone did those, they fulfilled them all.

Summed up, not replaced.

Semantics plays a big role in most disagreements around here. They are really important. And if we don't clarify meaning, we can agree when we really don't agree and we can disagree when we really don't disagree.

[Emily]

Summed up, not replaced.

Love does sum up the law. So if we love God and others above self, we fulfill the law.

The 'law' as given to Moses was giving them a measure but love is the law complete.

Luke 10:26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" 27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

"The entire law is summed up in a single command: Love your neighbor as yourself" (Galatians 5:14). "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Gal 5:23

What is Love? Really

There is a misconception that for a Christian to be right with God that they need to follow a list of rules, but the Lord's instructions is to Love others and Love God.

I believe that the real debate is about the definition of love.

Does a man tell his betrothed on their wedding night – here is a list of rules and if you follow them we will be fine? No – if they love each other – no list of rules in necessary, but through their love, they will fulfill all that is considered the behavior of one who loves.

Love is not based on a list of rules but a list of rules can be easily followed with the heart of love.

The first four commandments are about loving God
1. You shall have no other Gods before me.
1. Love is loyal – have no other before me
2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
2.Love is Faithful – make no possession that you put between you and I.
3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
3. Love is reverent and respectful – do not speak against me.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.
4. Love takes time for one another – the Sabbath – a special day to spend together But Jesus said to pray unceasingly and as we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit every day is our rest in Him and every day should be spent with Him throughout our everyday lives. But remember to take a special time alone and away from the care of this world. Jesus also said that the law was not made for God but was made for man. Mark 2:27
Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Romans 14:5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

The remainder are about loving others. If you love someone you are not going to commit adultery against them or kill them. If you love someone you shouldn’t have to be looking elsewhere and coveting what they have but should want to give them whatever they need to support their life and happiness.

5. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
5. Love is respectful – bows to authority – respects those worthy of respect.
6. You shall not murder.
6. Love protects Life – it doesn’t take it
7. You shall not commit adultery.
7. Love is pure – it lives to exalt one another not cause hurt or harm
8. You shall not steal.
8. Love is unselfish – it doesn’t take – it gives
9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
9. Love is truthful – there is no reason to lie
10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s."
10. Love is content - it does not wish for anything more to be happy

If we love God then these are as natural as breathing – they are not rules – they are the result of love.
So – if we love God and love others – we fulfill the law.


Matthew 22
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

[Al Swearengen]

Love is not based on a list of rules but a list of rules can be easily followed with the heart of love.

Indeed! Torah written upon the heart...the New Covenant!



Ask Him to write His Torah on your heart...He will!

Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the TORAH, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

[Emily]

Indeed! Torah written upon the heart...the New Covenant!



Ask Him to write His Torah on your heart...He will!

I am already saved by the blood of Christ and indwelt by His Holy Spirit. I am spirit led.

The New Covenant is written in His blood to a NEW CREATION who are take up their cross, follow Him to die to self and be born again.

John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."


Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Romans 8:1
[ Life Through the Spirit ] Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

Romans 8:2
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 6
3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

2 Cor 3
7 [The Greater Glory of the New Covenant ] Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was.

2 Cor 3
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

[Al Swearengen]

The New Covenant is written in His blood to a NEW CREATION who are take up their cross, follow Him to die to self and be born again.

YES! To walk as He walked! Torah written on the hearts and not fleshly table of stone...the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life!

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my TORAH in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

HalleluYAH!

[Buick Electra]

Love does sum up the law. So if we love God and others above self, we fulfill the law.

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

That's how my professor summed it up Thursday night regarding the Law...."if you can't adhere to ALL the laws, then at least pay attention to the first commandment and second commandment of Matthew 22:37-39...and if you can't remember those just remember to love."

[Al Swearengen]

That's how my professor summed it up Thursday night regarding the Law...."if you can't adhere to ALL the laws, then at least pay attention to the first commandment and second commandment of Matthew 22:37-39...and if you can't remember those just remember to love."

Yeshua made mention of least...as well as greatest as well:

Mat 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teachthem,the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


We got 1000 years coming!

Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the TORAH, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Might as well get a leg-up now!

[Emily]

Yeshua made mention of least...as well as greatest as well:

Mat 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teachthem,the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What you don't seem to ever understand is that NO ONE is saying not to follow them. We never have. We simply are repeating what He has said:
1. Matthew 5 - you would have to gouge out your eyes and cut off your hands to successfully follow them. That is why we need a savior.
2. Matthew 19 - even if you could follow them - it isn't enough and it is IMPOSSIBLE for man to be saved through the law.
3. That if you love God and others above self you fulfill the law. That is what God Himself said to us so why do folks keep going around believing that they are capable of following a list of rules any other way except by loving others and God above self?
4. That scripture you quoted does not say they are not in heaven it said that they would be called LEAST in the kingdom. They are still there.

We got 1000 years coming!

Not unless you live through the tribulation or are beheaded in it.
Everyone who dies before the tribulation will not be participating in the 1000 reign.

Revelation 20

The Thousand Years

1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.