Bethel: Con't You Yet See That The Seven Last Times Were Over long, Long Ago?

[Forty9er]

It was a very real question and not designed to trap you. It says what it says and I have asked tons of folks the same thing over the years. All I usually get is a runaround, with others it is a reality shock.

I have talked to many Christians over the years and I don't think I have ever asked, or would ever ask anyone what they had repented of. By asking that question you are either trying to get them to confess some horrible sins to you or you would just expect them to say "sins" in general. I can't think of any true Christian, who I would define as someone who has placed their personal faith in Christ to save them from their sins, who would respond in some other way, like they couldn't think of anything they had repented of.

If the "tons" of folks you have asked that question to have said something significantly different, I suspect you are asking people who are "Christian" in name only, like those who may attend church occasionally just so they can fit in with the crowd.

If the question you are asking them is really what has changed in their life after they became a Christian, you might get a different range of responses. Given what I know about your one track mind set, I imagine you would expect any true follower of Messiah would respond by saying that they repented of working on the Sabbath, eating ham sandwiches, not observing the feasts, etc. since from what you have said in your posts it seems like those kinds of things are what are important and identify a true follower of Messiah.

On the other hand, I don't think I have ever heard you question someone about whether they are a true follower of Messiah if they don't show love for their neighbor like they love themselves, or if they take the Lord's name in vain, or if they tell "white" lies, or occasionally take home a few small things from their employer, or exaggerate a little on their taxes, or get a little drunk on occasion.

Did you know that in all the NT following the death of Christ, Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are not once specifically commanded to observe the Sabbath or criticized for not observing it? Not in Acts 15 or anywhere else. That is pretty amazing given the large number of pagan Gentiles who converted to Christ who would have no knowledge or only limited knowledge of the requirements of the Law. The same thing is true for the feasts. Not once is anyone commanded specifically to observe any one of them, including the Passover.

But the NT clearly condemns swearing, lying, stealing, drunkenness, sexual immorality and many other sins. But apparently those aren't the sins you think are important enough for you to tell whether a person is a "true follower of Messiah".

So forgive me if I am unable to make the call ONLY ABBA can truly make. I don't know you well enough, heck, I don't even know if you claim His covenant. Do you?

I am not familiar with what you are asking, "claim His covenant". If you are talking about the New Covenant, it isn't a matter of claiming it. Anyone who has placed their faith in Christ receives the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and is forgiven, justified and given eternal life and becomes part of the New Covenant.

[Off-Grid Organics]

Did you know that in all the NT following the death of Christ, Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are not once specifically commanded to observe the Sabbath or criticized for not observing it? Not in Acts 15 or anywhere else. That is pretty amazing given the large number of pagan Gentiles who converted to Christ who would have no knowledge or only limited knowledge of the requirements of the Law. The same thing is true for the feasts. Not once is anyone commanded specifically to observe any one of them, including the Passover.

Sabbath was a given. Period. They observed Sabbath and the Feast days; Messiah was their example and they were instructed to follow in His steps. We went over this in Acts 15 about those TURNING to Messiah and them coming each SABBATH to learn more torah.

Act 15:19 “Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the nations who are TURNING to Elohim,

Act 15:20 but that we write to them to abstain from the defilements of idols,a and from whoring,b and from what is strangled,c and from blood.d Footnotes: a Exo_22:20, Lev_17:7, Deu_32:17, Deu_32:21, 1Co_10:14, 1Co_10:20-21. b Num_25:1-3, Lev_17:7. c Gen_9:4, Eze_33:25 (Strangled - One way of eating meat with blood) Pro_21:25. d Lev_17:10-14.

Act 15:21 “For from ancient generations Mosheh has, in every city, those proclaiming him – being read in the congregations every Sabbath.”

Act 13:42 And when the Yehuḏim went out of the congregation, the nations begged to have these words spoken to them the next Sabbath.

Act 13:44 And on the next Sabbath almost all the city came together to hear the Word of Elohim.

Of course the Feasts were a given also...imagine if they would NOT have been honoring them so many years after He was impaled:

Act 2:1 And when the Day of the Festival of Shaḇuʽotha had come, they were all with one mind in one place. Footnote: aWeeks.

1Co_5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

You seem to think everything has to be a rewritten command to be valid rather than observing the obvious behavior and evidence.

[Forty9er]

Sabbath was a given. Period.

Like if you say it, it is true, no questions permitted. That's not going to happen. It's laughable that you would think that all of these truly pagan Gentiles just automatically know to observe the Sabbath without being instructed, and not just know what day to observe but know exactly what they can and can't do. Even today, Jews argue about what is and isn't permitted so to say that it was just a given for those pagans is a joke.

If the Sabbath was a given, certainly the sin of idolatry would also be a given. But idolatry is condemned in 11 verses in the NT. Murder is condemned in 12 verses. Sexual immorality is condemned in 25 verses. There is a reason that God's revealed Word in the NT doesn't command Sabbath observance and the answer is that Christians today are not commanded to keep it (Rom 14:5-6).

Of course the Feasts were a given also...imagine if they would NOT have been honoring them so many years after He was impaled:

Act 2:1 And when the Day of the Festival of Shaḇuʽotha had come, they were all with one mind in one place. Footnote: aWeeks.

This is just a few weeks after the Christ's death, not years later. And this is just an observation of the day not a command or instruction to observe the feast.

1Co_5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

That is a disingenuous example to use for observing Passover. Anyone can see that it is strictly a figurative language reference to Passover. The previous verse says Christ is our Passover lamb and HAS BEEN sacrificed. Since that occurred only once for all, there is no other lamb to be sacrificed for Passover. And do you serve the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth in your Passover observance?

I tried to make it clear...

I don't even know if you claim His covenant. Do you?

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall make a renewed covenant with the house of Yisra’ěl and with the house of Yehuḏah,a Footnote: a Heb_8:8-12, Heb_10:16-17.

Jer 31:32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I strengthenedb their hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares יהוה. Footnote: bCommonly understood as “take hold of.”

Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ěl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

So, this is the covenant you claim? I say claim because many claim it, yet deny what it says.

First, it is not a "renewed covenant" but a NEW covenant. If you can't discern that it is a new covenant from Jer 31:32 which says it is "not like" the old covenant, then Hebrews makes it perfectly clear:

Heb 7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Heb 7:18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness
Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:20 And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath,
Heb 7:21 but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​“The Lord has sworn ​​​​​​​and will not change his mind, ​​​​​​​‘You are a priest forever.’” ​​​
Heb 7:22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.

Not only is it a new covenant but a changed covenant and a better covenant. In no way is it a renewed covenant. So the Law that God writes on the heart is NOT the Old covenant Law. That probably answers your question.

[Off-Grid Organics]

Like if you say it, it is true, no questions permitted. That's not going to happen. It's laughable that you would think that all of these truly pagan Gentiles just automatically know to observe the Sabbath without being instructed, and not just know what day to observe but know exactly what they can and can't do.

Already answered that. They would learn more each Sabbath, as Acts 15 points out. Entire cities were coming, nations included. EVERY sabbath. Of course Messiah said it was made for MANKIND, not just the Jews. But you ignore that too. If you had Spiritual eyes, you would understand the depth of what was said here:

Joh 9:14 Now it was a Sabbath when יהושע made the clay and opened his eyes.

But I really don't expect you to.

[Off-Grid Organics]

There is a reason that God's revealed Word in the NT doesn't command Sabbath observance and the answer is that Christians today are not commanded to keep it (Rom 14:5-6).

LOL...Sabbath isn't mentioned at all. The topic: Rom 14:1 And receive him who is weak in the belief, not criticising his thoughts.
Rom 14:2 One indeed believes to eat all food, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Rom 14:3 He that eats, let him not despise him who does not eat, and he that does not eat, let him not judge him who eats, for Elohim received him. Rom 14:4 Who are you that judges another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. But he shall be made to stand, for Elohim is able to make him stand. STOP SABBATH ALERT!Rom 14:5 One indeed judges one day above another, another judges every day alike. Let each one be completely persuaded in his own mind. Rom 14:6 He who minds the day, minds it to יהוה. And he who does not mind the day, to יהוה he does not mind it. He who eats, eats to יהוה, for he gives Elohim thanks. And he who does not eat, to יהוה he does not eat, and gives Elohim thanks.

You really need to research Jewish customs of that time, then you wouldn't be guilty of eisegesis so much.

Sabbath was kept before, during, and after Messiah was impaled...and it won't stop:

Isa 66:22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make stand before Me,” declares יהוה, “so your seed and your name shall stand.
Isa 66:23 “And it shall be that from New moon to New moon, and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares יהוה.
Isa 66:24 “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me.c For their worm shall not die, and their fire not be quenched. And they shall be repulsive to all flesh!” Footnote: cSee Isa_24:6, Isa_34:2-3, Psa_110:6, Jer_25:33.

Some Jews thought there were traditional fast days that were above others

[Off-Grid Organics]

I am not familiar with what you are asking, "claim His covenant". If you are talking about the New Covenant, it isn't a matter of claiming it. Anyone who has placed their faith in Christ receives the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit and is forgiven, justified and given eternal life and becomes part of the New Covenant.

I tried to make it clear...

I don't even know if you claim His covenant. Do you?

Jer 31:31 “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall make a renewed covenant with the house of Yisra’ěl and with the house of Yehuḏah,a Footnote: a Heb_8:8-12, Heb_10:16-17.

Jer 31:32 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day when I strengthenedb their hand to bring them out of the land of Mitsrayim, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares יהוה. Footnote: bCommonly understood as “take hold of.”

Jer 31:33 “For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ěl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

So, this is the covenant you claim? I say claim because many claim it, yet deny what it says.