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  #111  
Old 05-07-2011, 02:09 AM
Theresej Theresej is offline
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Originally Posted by packyderms_wife View Post
No I don't think so, what part of "observe all that I have commanded you" do you think doesn't apply to the ENTIRE body of Christ?

K-
Jesus only sent the apostle with all the power and authority the Father sent Him with.
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  #112  
Old 05-07-2011, 06:41 AM
Theresej Theresej is offline
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It is very, very sad that the Catholic Church continues to be misrepresented and falsely accused concerning what She teaches.


I will try to address each point by point.
"This may be what the RCC has written as history but it is not true."
This may be one person's opinion, but that doesn't make it a true statement.

History has been set down by the people who were there, including non christian sources.

"Catholics follow the Pope first, Christ second."

This is a very erroneous statement, has absolutly not even a smidgen of truth in it at all.

Catholics follow Christ fist and foremost - always have, always will.


"Catholics have priests as intercessors. We need no one to intercede with our Lord. That was the point of His death and resurrection."

There are two false elements here.

The first false element is the idea that we don't need anyone to interceed for us with our Lord.

That is a false statement that is not supported by scripture in any way shape or form.

In fact, we are told just the opposite. We are definitively commanded to interceed for one another.
James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

1 Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,

Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

Ephesians 6:18 Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints

Colossians 1:9 And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

Colossians 4:3 At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison

Romans 15:30 I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,


2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you


1 Thessalonians 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.



We could go on, but it is clear we are commanded to pray for one antoher so intercession for others must be necessary or this would be a superfluous command, and God does not give us superfluous commands.

So we can see this is easily put to rest.

Do you pray for anyone? Then you interceed for them.

Do you ask anyone to pray for you? Then they interceed for you.


The second false element is implied. . that Catholics can't pray to God ourselves. That is patently false as the Church has many prayers She encourages the faithful to pray DIRECTLY to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.




Next:
"Catholics believe that they cannot be assured of their salvation even though Christ said 'It is Finished."
This is also false. Catholics CAN be assured of their salvation as much as it is possible for anyone to be truly be assured of their salvation.

"You may believe the writings of men, I have only one teacher, my Lord Christ Jesus. I know for a fact that He does not condone or approve of a group of men who have committed the atrocities of the Vatican and continue to do so to this day."
Two more false flags raised.

The first is somehow supposed to suggest that if you read what others have written about the christian faith, that somehow your faith is inferior to one who supposedly listens to Christ alone.

Last time I checked, Christ wasn't walking around talking directly to anyone on a regular basis.

The scriptures were written by men - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of course, but still written by men. They did not fall from a German typerwriter in the sky. Men sat down and penned those words we call scripture.

In addition, the Fathers of the Church, from the end of the apostolic era forward have left us many writings atteting to right belief, proper worsip and practice of the christian faith.

Additionally we are told by scripture to stand fast and hold to the TRADITIONS we have been taught, whether by WORD - which means VERBALLY or by epistle - that which was set down in writing (our NT scriptures).

We are commanded by scripture to hold to BOTH. Those verbal traditions not set down in writing were handed down and set down in the works of the Early Church Fathers. So if one does not wish to hold the teachings handed down by men from the Aposles in additon to the scriptures, then they are choosing to hold to only one half of what Paul commanded us to hold to.

Catholic choose to hold to the whole teachings as commanded by Paul:
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
The Greek word translated "word" in that passage refers to what was taught VERBALLY . . LOGOS.

In addition, we are told in scripture we have MANY teachers:
1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
10,000 is hyperbole for many .. . .Christians of the first century had many teachers. The Catholic Church today follows the same Traiditon here that Paul acknowledges above.


"Christ Jesus had no place to call home and yet the Pope lives in a palace of gold while his 'flock' live in poverty. How does the one who is supposed to be the intercessor for Christ live better than He did?"
Here a non-issue presented to try to make issues of non issues.

The Vatican is a City State, a soveriegn country in its own right. The asthetic value of architecture and style of the Vatican can be lost on some, but thankfully not on others.

However, the insinuations made by the accusations are entirely without merit:
It is probably cheaper to house the pope in a building the Church already owns than to buy him an apartment in Rome, which has one of the most expensive real estate markets.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/29862382?slide=4



The conditions under which John Paul II lived:

"The renovation [for Benedict XVI], the workman related, was long overdue. The architects said they were surprised at the poor state of the apartment.

"For one thing, the electrical system was not up to code. Some rooms still used old 125-volt electrical outlets, which were phased out years ago in Italy in favor of 220 volts. The water pipes were encrusted with rust and lime, and the heating system was approximate at best.

"Above the false ceiling, workers discovered big drums placed strategically to catch the leaks from the roof; some were nearly full of water."

"Those who frequented the papal apartment under Pope John Paul II have no doubt that the place needed an overhaul. Polish film director Krzysztof Zanussi, a friend of the late pope, once said he was astonished at the gloominess of the place, with its outmoded furnishings and lack of lighting.

"'Everything was in semidarkness, somber and without inspiration. The chairs were like the ones my aunt had in the suburbs of Warsaw,' Zanussi said. 'It was not a place that made one feel good.'"

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories…

Some luxury.
A Christian MEANS one who follows Christ. We don't need the pope to do that.

I respectfully diagree.

Without the Office of the Pope, there would be no Rock for the Church to be built and stand upon.

As shared earlier, Christ decreed that the CHURCH would be built on Peter, and thus his Office, and that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church.

So what does the promise the Gates of Hell wil not prevail against the Church signify?

The Gates of Hell: if you look at the physical surroundings, Cesarea Phillipi where Jesus spoke those words, you see Jesus's words being graphically illustrated by their surroundings. The MASSSIVE rock cliff standing prominetly above all else, unable to be missed. The the large yawning cave at the foot of the massive rock cliff contained a river, the depth of which was unfathomed in that time, the river leading to who knows where.

This cave was called The Gates of Hades, and it was beleved by the pagans it lead to the underworld - the realm of the dead.

So Jesus used the setting to set the stage well to illustrate His words to Peter.

So, if something were set up on top the massive rock cliff, nothing from the cave, the Gates of Hades, could reach it - the massive Rock clliff is in the way - unless the Rock cliff itself caved and fell into the cave. Then anything on top would also fall into the cave and be swallowed up.

For the Gates of Hades to prevail against the Church which Jesus sits atop the massive rock (Peter), it would have to go THROUGH the massive cliff rock (Peter) and destroy it first before it could get to the Church above.

So, if God ever removed the divinely appointed office from the Chair of Peter, then the massive rock cliff would have been overcome and the Gates of Hell will have prevailed against the Church . .

But Jesus promised this would NEVER happen.

By Jesus' own words and illustration, it is crystal clear to the Catholic Church that the Church and the Chair of Peter, the Papacy, are inseparably intertwined . . one cannot be without the other.


Since we know the scriptures are the divinely inspired word of God (in writing), we know that the chair of Peter will never be destroyed despite whatever attacks may be thrown agaisnt it, and God will never remove His authority from it.
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  #113  
Old 05-07-2011, 09:05 AM
Emily Emily is offline
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Interesting no defense for the pedophile protector issue?

No defense for the crusades or inquisitions where the RCC killed people for disagreeing with them?

TJ - you and I can discuss this until the Lord returns. You like the RCC and can excuse away the objections of others even though you have to draw on writings of men and burying evidence to do it - that is your choice.

Christianity belongs to all those who follow Christ and have died to self and been born again. That is the gospel. No popes, no bishops, no priests, no other humans involved.

If I were on a deserted Island with no Bible or even another human being, I could be saved by responding to the witness of the Holy Spirit to my heart.

Hebrews 3
Warning Against Unbelief

7 So, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts

as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”[b]
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:
Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts

as you did in the rebellion.”
Psalm 95:7,8


Romans 1
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I believe God does use all things for His purposes. I know many devoted believers in the RCC. To God be the glory. I know many devoted believers in many different religions.

Just as each of us is unique, so is our journey. Some need more structure, others need more freedom. The point is - are we seeking Him. If we are then He will respond.

We need to respect one another's differences and trust Him to speak to the hearts of anyone who is lost.

I will, however, object when someone tries to claim THEIR religion is the only way because I have come to learn that God uses many different ways to bring us along. The important thing is that we discern everything, seek the truth above all else, and not get settled along the way in the doctrines of men for fear we become like the seeds where there is no depth for growth.

No one can grow in a fruitful relationship with Him if they are planted in the doctrines of men. We can only grow and bring forth fruit of the Holy Spirit if we are planted in His love and we trust Him above all else.

We can know one another by our love. 1 John teaches us self inspection regarding our growth in Him.

  • Do you enjoy fellowship with the Holy Spirit in your daily life? 1 John 1:6; 1 John 4:13
  • Are you sensitive to sin? 1 John 1:5 And do you recognize that you are a sinner? 1 John 1:8
  • Do you obey God’s word? He tells us to love Him above all else and to love others as He has loved us. 1 John 2:3
  • Do you love this world and the things in this world? We are told not to: 1 John 2:15
  • Do you eagerly await his return? 1 John 3:2-3
  • Do you love other Christians? 1 John 3:10
  • Have you suffered rejection because of your faith? 1 John 3:13
  • Do you experience answered prayer? 1 John 3:22
  • Can you discern between spiritual truth and error? 1 John 4:1-3
  • Do you see a decreasing pattern of sin in your life? In other words are you more holy today than you were when you were first saved or if you were saved recently – are you walking towards holiness or trying to adjust to pleasing both the world and God? 1 John 3:4-10
Are our lives exhibiting the fruit of the Holy Spirit?
Gal 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 2425 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Are we pleasing our Lord?
Matthew 25
The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”


And that is where I peacefully embrace His teachings to my heart and walk to honor Him as best as I can. I pray for the lost and if He sends any across my path, I hope my life and my words are a testimony of my blessed hope.
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

We can agree to disagree but I hope you come to respect that Christianity does not belong to the RCC and the evidence you present was created by them so it is not valid evidence. To claim the exclusivity of the RCC is to claim that we are not saved if we don't believe as you do. That isn't right.
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  #114  
Old 05-07-2011, 11:01 AM
Theresej Theresej is offline
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It is the the norm for anti Catholics to keep throwing out one issue after another as each one is taken down in stead. I'm not surprised that new issues are thrown out as the misrepresenstations of what the Catholic Church believes are exposed.

Now the attack suddenly focuses not on what the Cathollic Church teaches but on how individuals within her have behaved as if this change in focus is supposed to somehow negate the fact that the prevously made claims regarding Catholic teaching are indeed false and grossly misleading.

Somehow, pointing out the personal failings of a very smal number of people within the Church makes all the false representations of her teaching OK and somehow correct.

It doesn't work that way.

I will not be getting into a drawn out discussion on those personal failings of individuals. But there is a saying: people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I have avoided addressing such attacks before for this very reason. In an honest look at these two issues, one would have to expose the glass house of protestantism on both accounts of pedophilia and inquisitions. But someone seems to be relentless in her attacks on the Catholic Church, so let's look at the reality.

In both cases they are much worse within protestantism than ever within Catholicism

First, is the problem within the Catholic Church excuseable? No. But at least the Catholic Church is doing something to fix it. Additionally, does the problem in the Catholic Church has been dealing with, which the media has been so hyperfocused on, excuse anti-catholic attacks on Her by protestants while they ignore the much greater problem of the same in their own backyard?


Absolutely not.



Double Standard: Abuse Scandals and the Attack on the Catholic Church

David F. Pierre Jr


Amazon.com: Double Standard: Abuse Scandals and the Attack on the Catholic Church (9781453730690): David F. Pierre Jr: Books

Regarding the above book:
The book DOUBLE STANDARD: ABUSE SCANDALS AND THE ATTACK ON THE CATHOLIC CHURCH by David F. Pierrre jr. was a referance in a *Special Report* bombshell Jan. 2 of this year by the website Media Report. Att'y Donald Steier, a veteran and champion for truth states approx. 1/2 of the claims made in the clergy cases are entirely false and/or greatly exaggerated-so much so that a prosecutable claim would not be attainable. Priests were given a polygraph test but when their accusers were asked they flat out refused in EVERY case.

Steier also has brought SNAP into the light for it's money making collaboration with a number of lawyers. SNAP steadfastly refuses to divulge how much of its income is derived from said lawyers.

The Media outlets have largely ignored this major element to the entire Catholic abuse stories they headline. It is a sad truth that crimes are commited by priests as well as pastors. This abuse is unacceptable!! But when the media plasters the Catholic abuse cases across the frontpage headlines (I've yet to see a one concerning pastors make front page)and leaves this bombshell curiously vacant it makes me wonder about their "agenda".

The lies and manipulation by all these people clearly show that their efforts have little to do with the victims, for it is a huge money making proposition for them. To put a finer point to this fraud, since 2005 the Church has doled out an additional ONE BILLION in settlements.

We will see if the media takes a closer look this year at the claims being made as well as the business of SNAP (Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests).

Sam Miller:
"Why would newspapers carry on a vendetta on one of the most important institutions that we have today in the United States, namely the Catholic Church?"

Do you know - the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday at the cost to that Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. The graduates go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%.

The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students..

The Catholic Church has a non-profit hospital system of 637 hospitals, which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people - not just Catholics - in the United States today.

But the press is vindictive and trying to totally denigrate in every way the Catholic Church in this country. They have blamed the disease of pedophilia on the Catholic Church, which is as irresponsible as blaming adultery on the institution of marriage.

Let me give you some figures that Catholics should know and remember. For example, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact in a study by the United Methodist Church , 41.8% of clergy women reported unwanted sexual behavior; 17% of laywomen have been sexually harassed.

Meanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic Problem.

A study of American priests showed that most are happy in the priesthood and find it even better than they had expected, and that most, if given the choice, would choose to be priests again in face of all this obnoxious PR the church has been receiving.

The Catholic Church is bleeding from self-inflicted wounds. The agony that Catholics have felt and suffered is not necessarily the fault of the Church. You have been hurt by a very small number of wayward priests. Walk with your shoulders high and you head higher. Be a proud member of the most important non-governmental agency in the United States .

Then remember what Jeremiah said: 'Stand by the roads, and look and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is and walk in it, and find rest for your souls'. Be proud to speak up for your faith with pride and reverence and learn what your Church does for all other religions.
Excerpts above written by non-Catholic Sam Miller - a prominent Cleveland Jewish businessman

What has happened in the Catholic Church has been so hyper publicized that it has been made to be something greatly out of proportion to what it really is. And within protestant groups, even though the problem is much more prevalent, it has received virtually no publicity at all.

One has to wonder, why is that?

How is this behavior of anti-Cathlic individulas, who ignore the very same problem in protestant churches, while hammering on the Caholic Church, acceptable?

It's not.

Since the problem is far graeater within the protestant churches, where is the moral outrage? - Why isn't this situation within protestantism getting it's proportionate share of attention? Why isn't it getting addressed?

The very fact this problem is far greater within protestantism should mean we should be hearing about this problem within protestantismfirst and foremost -. But we don't hear ANYTHING about it from these same anti Catholic individuals who love to wag their fingers and tongues at the Catholic Church's troubles while being silent on the same troubles of a far greater nature in the rest of Christianity. Isn't that hyppcritical?

Those same claim to be led by the Holy Spirit and loving - does the Holy Spirit lead one to be hypocritical?

Why are they so focused on pointing out the splinter in the Catholic Church's eye, when they are not even dealing with the beam that is in the collective protestant eye? Isn't that hyppcritical?

Anti-Catholics will protest against the Catholic Church, whether the protest is legitimate or not, whether it is hypocritical or not . .

The question has to be asked, why all this unbalanced focus against the failings of a small number of individuals in the Catholic Church?

There is a reason why the Catholic Church is discrimiated against, maligned, and treated hypocritically so much.

Satan is much more focused on destroying the Catholic Church than he is any other church group. That is why the media hyerpfocuses on the Catholic Church. That is why some protestant brethern hyperfocus on the faults of Catholic leaders while ignoring the bigger problem in their own backyard.

Why would satan be so interested in destroying something that is supposedly (according to our anti-catholic brethern) in error?

He's not. He is trying to destroy the Church of God starting with the Rock Jesus said He would build His Church upon, Peter and the office of the keys, the Paapcy, as this Rock must be overcome first before the Church on top of it can be destroyed, as was described in my post above.
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  #115  
Old 05-07-2011, 11:10 AM
Fisheater Fisheater is offline
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[70] Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
[71] He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him.

There have and always will be Judas' in His Church ..... It is still His Church run by weak and fallen men ... But as Peter said ... Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;

And the words of eternal life are ....[47] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. [48] I am the bread of life.


You can spin it any way you want ..... But they are the Words in Red .....
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  #116  
Old 05-07-2011, 12:12 PM
Emily Emily is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fisheater View Post
[70] Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
[71] He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him.

There have and always will be Judas' in His Church ..... It is still His Church run by weak and fallen men ... But as Peter said ... Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;

And the words of eternal life are ....[47] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. [48] I am the bread of life.


You can spin it any way you want ..... But they are the Words in Red .....
There is no spin. I can respect the road you are on and if you trust God to have more compassion for the lost than you will ever imagine then you can trust that if any person is seeking Him - He will respond even if it doesn't line up with your version of things.

There is no historical proof that Peter headed up the RCC and that what became the RCC is the one true church.

The only historical 'proof' is how the RCC wrote it up.

I will never - and I mean never - embrace the teachings of the RCC. I don't trust human beings that much, especially those who protect pedophiles.

Trusting my eternity is pretty near and dear to me and if men can't be trusted with a child - they cannot be trusted with my eternity.

End of debate.
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  #117  
Old 05-07-2011, 12:18 PM
Emily Emily is offline
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Originally Posted by Theresej View Post
It is the the norm for anti Catholics to keep throwing out one issue after another as each one is taken down in stead. I'm not surprised that new issues are thrown out as the misrepresenstations of what the Catholic Church believes are exposed.
You can keep this up all day long. The point is - the RCC is no different than any other human being - flawed and human.

They do not deserve the right to lead another human being regarding their eternity any more than any other person.

They wrote the history claiming they are 'the church' and they enjoy the worship and adoration they get from their 'flock.'
Where is the connection showing that Peter (if I were to buy that he was the first leader Christ passed to) starting the RCC?
None -unless you accept what the RCC wrote and presents.

Only people who actually are blinded to trusting in humans can accept what they try to pass off as truth in that they claim are 'the' church. How insulting that is to the rest of us but you just keep on pushing it.

Well here is the only truth people need:

Christ alone is our leader and teacher and savior.
Christ alone, through His Holy Spirit, leads a heart to salvation.
Salvation is by Christ alone, by faith alone, by grace alone.

No pope, priests, or pedophiles needed.
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  #118  
Old 05-07-2011, 12:30 PM
Theresej Theresej is offline
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**********
The point of my responses to the attacks on the behavior of people within the Catholic Church, using the facts I present, are to demonstrate the false nature of the argumentation that uses these claims against the Catholic Church as an attempt to somehow invalidate Her - they are not intended as an attack protestantism in return - the conclusion of which is here:
http://www.thetreeofliberty.com/vb/s...&postcount=119

**********


Now to address the attack on the Catholic Church regarding the inquisitions.

Supposedly the most infamous is the Spanish Inquisiton.

Have you ever heard of "The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition" ???

It was documentary put on by the BBC that busted all the myths we see so popularly resurrected quite frequently by anti-Catholics.

Some interesting facts:

People fell all over themselves to have their cases transferred from the secular courts to the Inquisiotnal courts . . did you know that? If the Spainish Inquisitoin was so terrible, why would people do such a thing?


They would intentionally blaspheme or do some other act that would require that their case be heard by the inquisiton . . Why? Because they could be sure of:
  • a fair trial
  • fair treatment
  • clean jail cells
  • basic needs attended to
  • decent food
  • clean water
In contrast, the secular court system and jails provided none of those assurances.

Now why would people fall all over themselves to get their case heard before the Inquisition if it was so terrible?

Doesn't make sense in my book . . and this special explains why . . . The inquisiton was not at all what popularist history has portrayed it to be.

Here is some interesting information:
From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and king and therefore deserved death. From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep that had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring those sheep back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for heretics to escape death and return to the community.

Most people accused of heresy by the medieval Inquisition were either acquitted or their sentence suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ. The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed. If, however, an inquisitor determined that a particular sheep had purposely departed out of hostility to the flock, there was nothing more that could be done. Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to the secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Church did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule.


......

The Spanish people loved their Inquisition. That is why it lasted for so long. It stood guard against error and heresy, protecting the faith of Spain and ensuring the favor of God. But the world was changing. In time, Spain’s empire faded away. Wealth and power shifted to the north, in particular to France and England. By the late 17th century, new ideas of religious tolerance were bubbling across the coffeehouses and salons of Europe. Inquisitions, both Catholic and Protestant, withered. The Spanish stubbornly held on to theirs, and for that, they were ridiculed. French philosophes like Voltaire saw in Spain a model of the Middle Ages: weak, barbaric, superstitious. The Spanish Inquisition, already established as a bloodthirsty tool of religious persecution, was derided by Enlightenment thinkers as a brutal weapon of intolerance and ignorance. A new, fictional Spanish Inquisition had been constructed, designed by the enemies of Spain and the Catholic Church.

Because it was both professional and efficient, the Spanish Inquisition kept very good records. Vast archives are filled with them. These documents were kept secret, so there was no reason for scribes to do anything but accurately record every action of the Inquisition. They are a goldmine for modern historians who have plunged greedily into them. Thus far, the fruits of that research have made one thing abundantly clear—the myth of the Spanish Inquisition has nothing at all to do with the real thing.
Lots more info here - much more than I could possibly post here - by
Thomas F. Madden is associate professor and chairman of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. He is the author of numerous works, including most recently A Concise History of the Crusades (Rowman & Littlefield, 1999) and Enrico Dandolo and the Rise of Venice (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2003)
http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm


So, far from being the barbaric institution myth has characterized it as, it was noble and elevated in its judicial system for the day. And far from the excessive humbers that have been claimed by myth upwards in the hundreds of thousands to millions commonly head to have been burned at the stake, etc, the numbers put to death by secular authoritie was actully quite small in the hundreds to few thousands over several hundreds of years.

In contrast to that, we look at the Protestant inquisitions, where the real attrocities took place - but we never hear the protestant inquisitions being attacked, let alone even addressed.

More hypocrisy? Evidently.

So what happened in the protestant inquisitions? The data is vast. Hundreds of thousands, if not well over a million were put to death in the space of perhaps 200 years. The protestant inquisitons were indeed barbaric.

Let's take a look at some real history - this is not for the faint of heart, it is fairly gruesome:
MARTIN LUTHER
He encouraged the German Princes to seize church property in return for protection for the Reformation. Along with others, he issued a licence permitting the Landgrave of Hesse to keep 2 wives simultaneously. However worse was to come.

He urged the slaughter of the German peasants:
"Let all who are able, cut them down, slaughter and stab them, openly or in secret, and remember that there is nothing more poisonous, noxious and utterly devilish than a rebel... For we are come upon such strange times that a prince may more easily win heaven by the shedding of blood than others by prayers."

This call by Luther for the slaying of the peasants in the Peasant Revolt, we have 100,000masequered right there alone.

Luther was no less inflamatory with regard to the Jews, as seen in the following excerpts from his pamphlet: The Jews and Their Lies, (1543):
"First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honour of our Lord and of Christendom,

ULRICH ZWINGLI
Was a serial adulterer, killed those who disagreed with him, and promoted war against Catholic areas that refused to follow his doctrines. he also approved the drowning of Anabaptists.

JOHN CALVIN
Had 58 people executed in Geneva in just a few years of establishing his trule which many describe as tyrannical. This included the burning of Servetus, Gruet and others for criticising Calvin. The modern-day Congregational, Prebyterian, Reformed, Baptist and many of the Charismatic churches, all look to this same Calvin as their founding spiritual authority

Calvin himself writes about 23 such victims, executed for spreading the plague by witchcraft in a letter to Myconius of Basel (March 27, 1545):
"A conspiracy of men and women has lately been discovered, who, for the space of three years, had spread the plague through the city by what mischievous device I know not. After fifteen women have been burnt, some men have even been punished more severely, some have committed suicide in prison, and while twenty-five are still kept prisoners,—the conspirators do not cease, notwithstanding, to smear the door-locks of the dwelling-houses with their poisonous ointment.
THOMAS CRANMER and THOMAS CROMWELL
Founders of the Church of England, and through that the Baptists and the Methodists, helped directly to organise the plunder of the monasteries. Systematic torture and execution were used to gain the compliance of the population with the new protestant Church. This included the deaths of:
Queen Anne Boleyn
Queen Katherine Howard
St Thomas More
The Maid of Kent and her followers
Cardinal Fisher
Burning of Friar forrest
Disembowelling of Carthusian Monks
Execution and disembowelling of dozens monks and abbots who resisted the disollution of their monasteries.
After Catholics rose up in protest at the closing of the Monasteries in 1536, King Henry wrote:
"Our pleasure is that . . . you shall cause such dreadful execution to be done upon a good number of the inhabitants of every town, village, and hamlet that have offended, as they may be a fearful spectacle to all others hereafter that would practice any like matter."
Hundreds were massacred at random in the Catholic areas.
Others disembowelled or burnt within months included:
1534: Elizabeth Barton, q.v. (The Holy Maid of Kent), with five companions;John Dering, O.S.B., Edward Bocking, O.S.B., Hugh Rich, O.S.F., Richard Masters p., Henry Gold p.,
1537. Monks, 28. - After the pilgrimage of grace and the rising of Lincolnshire many, probably several hundred, were executed, of whom no record remains. The following names, which do survive, are grouped under their respective abbeys or priories. - Barling: Matthew Mackerel, abbot and Bishop of Chalcedon, Ord. Præm. Bardney: John Tenent, William Cole, John Francis, William Cowper, Richard Laynton, Hugh Londale, monks. Bridlington: William Wood, Prior. Fountains: William Thyrsk, O. Cist. Guisborough: James Cockerel, Prior.Jervaulx: Adam Sedbar, Abbot; George Asleby, monk. Kirkstead: Richard Harrison, Abbott, Richard Wade, William Swale, Henry Jenkinson, monks. Lenten: Nicholas Heath, Prior; William Gylham, monk. Sawlet: William Trafford, Abbott; Richard Eastgate, monk. Whalley: John Paslew, Abbott; John Eastgate, William Haydock, monks. Woburn: Robert Hobbes, Abbott; Ralph Barnes, sub-prior; Laurence Blonham, monk. York: John Pickering, O.S.D., Prior. Place unknown: George ab Alba Rose, O.S.A. Priests: William Burraby, Thomas Kendale, John Henmarsh, James Mallet, John Pickering, Thomas Redforth. Lords: Darcy and Hussey. Knights: Francis Bigod, Stephen Hammerton, Thomas Percy. Laymen (11): Robert Aske, Robert Constable, Bernard Fletcher, George Hudswell, Robert Lecche, Roger Neeve, George Lomley, Thomas Moyne, Robert Sotheby, Nicholas Tempest, Philip Trotter.
1538 (7): Henry Courtney, the Marquess of Exeter; Henry Pole, Lord Montague; Sir Edward Nevell and Sir Nicholas Carew; George Croft p., and John Collins p.; Hugh Holland l.. Their cause was "adhering to the Pope, and his Legate, Cardinal Pole".
1540 (6): Lawrence Cook O. Carm., Prior of Doncaster; Thomas Empson, O.S.B.; Robert Bird p.; William Peterson p.; William Richardson p.; Giles Heron l. 1544 (3): Martin de Courdres, O.S.A., and Paul of St. William, O.S.A.; Darby Genning

Over the next few reigns around 600 Catholic priests alone, and thousands of ordinary Catholics were disembowelled or otherwise murdered by Protestants because of their faith. Topcliffe, Elizabeth's chief torturer, had a special house full of torture equipment to be used on Catholic priests. One elderly priest was tortured 12 separate times to gain information on other priests and believers.

JOHN KNOX
Founder of Presbyterian Church
Participated in the murder of Cardinal Beaton.
Advocated the killing of Queen Mary of Scotland
Praised the stabbing of Rizzio
Advocated the slaying of Catholics.
At 51 married a 15 year-0ld girl.
We could go on. The Protestant Inquisition in Ireland was even more vicious than most. A simple list just of Catholic PRIESTS (not including far greater numbers of laymen) killed in a hundred year periodis very instructive. I can provide the list of at least a good hundred priests killed in a short number of years.

Without counting all of the incidents of protestant attacks on Catholics and others, we have:
100,000 peasants masequered by the German Princes per Luther's instructions

150,000+ witches burned at the stake by protestants

500,000+ Catholics slaughtered by protestants in Ireland Add in the deaths that were religiously motivated during the famine, and you have 1,000,000 in Ireland alone.

That is 750,000 to 1,250,000 and counting over a very short period of time, around 100 years . . . . . (which doesn't count the anabaptists and others the protestant inquisitions killed),

Last edited by Theresej; 05-07-2011 at 12:55 PM.
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  #119  
Old 05-07-2011, 12:33 PM
Theresej Theresej is offline
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So the question remains, why the hyper focus on myths, exagerations and lies about the Catholic Church by anti-Catholics while ignoring the much greater problem of the same issues in the collective backyard of protestantism?

Where is the outcry about the barbaric deeds of the reformers and the reformation?

Why the hypocrisy?

The use of such accusations to somehow invalidate the Catholic church is simply false argumentation.

To illustrate the false nature of such argumentation:
If such things are somehow proof that the Catholic Church is invalid, then they are even more so - doubly so, triply so, even 100 times so - proof that the Protestant Reformation, and thus protestantism and its offshoots today, is even more so invalidated.
That is simply the logical conclusion of the argument using the inquisitons, etc to attack the Catholic Church to somehow invalidate the Catholic Church.

The fact is, these attacks on the Catholic Church are really nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
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  #120  
Old 05-07-2011, 12:43 PM
Theresej Theresej is offline
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What I would appreciate is for our resident anti-Catholic to stop attacking the Catholic Church in this thread so we can actually discuss the topic of the thread itself.

Thank you :)
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