It is very, very sad that the Catholic Church continues to be misrepresented and falsely accused concerning what She teaches.
I will try to address each point by point.
"This may be what the RCC has written as history but it is not true."This may be one person's opinion, but that doesn't make it a true statement.
History has been set down by the people who were there, including non christian sources.
This is a very erroneous statement, has absolutly not even a smidgen of truth in it at all.
Catholics follow Christ fist and foremost - always have, always will.
There are two false elements here.
The first false element is the idea that we don't need anyone to interceed for us with our Lord.
That is a false statement that is not supported by scripture in any way shape or form.
In fact, we are told just the opposite. We are definitively commanded to interceed for one another.
James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.We could go on, but it is clear we are commanded to pray for one antoher so intercession for others must be necessary or this would be a superfluous command, and God does not give us superfluous commands.
So we can see this is easily put to rest.
Do you pray for anyone? Then you interceed for them.
Do you ask anyone to pray for you? Then they interceed for you.
The second false element is implied. . that Catholics can't pray to God ourselves. That is patently false as the Church has many prayers She encourages the faithful to pray DIRECTLY to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
"Catholics believe that they cannot be assured of their salvation even though Christ said 'It is Finished."This is also false. Catholics CAN be assured of their salvation as much as it is possible for anyone to be truly be assured of their salvation.
"You may believe the writings of men, I have only one teacher, my Lord Christ Jesus. I know for a fact that He does not condone or approve of a group of men who have committed the atrocities of the Vatican and continue to do so to this day."Two more false flags raised.
The first is somehow supposed to suggest that if you read what others have written about the christian faith, that somehow your faith is inferior to one who supposedly listens to Christ alone.
Last time I checked, Christ wasn't walking around talking directly to anyone on a regular basis.
The scriptures were written by men - under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of course, but still written by men. They did not fall from a German typerwriter in the sky. Men sat down and penned those words we call scripture.
In addition, the Fathers of the Church, from the end of the apostolic era forward have left us many writings atteting to right belief, proper worsip and practice of the christian faith.
Additionally we are told by scripture to stand fast and hold to the TRADITIONS we have been taught, whether by WORD - which means VERBALLY or by epistle - that which was set down in writing (our NT scriptures).
We are commanded by scripture to hold to BOTH. Those verbal traditions not set down in writing were handed down and set down in the works of the Early Church Fathers. So if one does not wish to hold the teachings handed down by men from the Aposles in additon to the scriptures, then they are choosing to hold to only one half of what Paul commanded us to hold to.
Catholic choose to hold to the whole teachings as commanded by Paul:
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.The Greek word translated "word" in that passage refers to what was taught VERBALLY . . LOGOS.
In addition, we are told in scripture we have MANY teachers:
1 Corinthians 4:15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet [have ye] not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.10,000 is hyperbole for many .. . .Christians of the first century had many teachers. The Catholic Church today follows the same Traiditon here that Paul acknowledges above.
Here a non-issue presented to try to make issues of non issues.
The Vatican is a City State, a soveriegn country in its own right. The asthetic value of architecture and style of the Vatican can be lost on some, but thankfully not on others.
However, the insinuations made by the accusations are entirely without merit:
It is probably cheaper to house the pope in a building the Church already owns than to buy him an apartment in Rome, which has one of the most expensive real estate markets.Some luxury.
A Christian MEANS one who follows Christ. We don't need the pope to do that.I respectfully diagree.
Without the Office of the Pope, there would be no Rock for the Church to be built and stand upon.
As shared earlier, Christ decreed that the CHURCH would be built on Peter, and thus his Office, and that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church.
So what does the promise the Gates of Hell wil not prevail against the Church signify?
The Gates of Hell: if you look at the physical surroundings, Cesarea Phillipi where Jesus spoke those words, you see Jesus's words being graphically illustrated by their surroundings. The MASSSIVE rock cliff standing prominetly above all else, unable to be missed. The the large yawning cave at the foot of the massive rock cliff contained a river, the depth of which was unfathomed in that time, the river leading to who knows where.
This cave was called The Gates of Hades, and it was beleved by the pagans it lead to the underworld - the realm of the dead.
So Jesus used the setting to set the stage well to illustrate His words to Peter.
So, if something were set up on top the massive rock cliff, nothing from the cave, the Gates of Hades, could reach it - the massive Rock clliff is in the way - unless the Rock cliff itself caved and fell into the cave. Then anything on top would also fall into the cave and be swallowed up.
For the Gates of Hades to prevail against the Church which Jesus sits atop the massive rock (Peter), it would have to go THROUGH the massive cliff rock (Peter) and destroy it first before it could get to the Church above.
So, if God ever removed the divinely appointed office from the Chair of Peter, then the massive rock cliff would have been overcome and the Gates of Hell will have prevailed against the Church . .
But Jesus promised this would NEVER happen.
By Jesus' own words and illustration, it is crystal clear to the Catholic Church that the Church and the Chair of Peter, the Papacy, are inseparably intertwined . . one cannot be without the other.
Since we know the scriptures are the divinely inspired word of God (in writing), we know that the chair of Peter will never be destroyed despite whatever attacks may be thrown agaisnt it, and God will never remove His authority from it.
Interesting no defense for the pedophile protector issue?
No defense for the crusades or inquisitions where the RCC killed people for disagreeing with them?
TJ - you and I can discuss this until the Lord returns. You like the RCC and can excuse away the objections of others even though you have to draw on writings of men and burying evidence to do it - that is your choice.
Christianity belongs to all those who follow Christ and have died to self and been born again. That is the gospel. No popes, no bishops, no priests, no other humans involved.
If I were on a deserted Island with no Bible or even another human being, I could be saved by responding to the witness of the Holy Spirit to my heart.
Warning Against Unbelief
7 So, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”[b]
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end. 15 As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
I believe God does use all things for His purposes. I know many devoted believers in the RCC. To God be the glory. I know many devoted believers in many different religions.
Just as each of us is unique, so is our journey. Some need more structure, others need more freedom. The point is - are we seeking Him. If we are then He will respond.
We need to respect one another's differences and trust Him to speak to the hearts of anyone who is lost.
I will, however, object when someone tries to claim THEIR religion is the only way because I have come to learn that God uses many different ways to bring us along. The important thing is that we discern everything, seek the truth above all else, and not get settled along the way in the doctrines of men for fear we become like the seeds where there is no depth for growth.
No one can grow in a fruitful relationship with Him if they are planted in the doctrines of men. We can only grow and bring forth fruit of the Holy Spirit if we are planted in His love and we trust Him above all else.
We can know one another by our love. 1 John teaches us self inspection regarding our growth in Him.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 2425 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Are we pleasing our Lord?
The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
And that is where I peacefully embrace His teachings to my heart and walk to honor Him as best as I can. I pray for the lost and if He sends any across my path, I hope my life and my words are a testimony of my blessed hope.
1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,
We can agree to disagree but I hope you come to respect that Christianity does not belong to the RCC and the evidence you present was created by them so it is not valid evidence. To claim the exclusivity of the RCC is to claim that we are not saved if we don't believe as you do. That isn't right.
'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe
It is the the norm for anti Catholics to keep throwing out one issue after another as each one is taken down in stead. I'm not surprised that new issues are thrown out as the misrepresenstations of what the Catholic Church believes are exposed.
Now the attack suddenly focuses not on what the Cathollic Church teaches but on how individuals within her have behaved as if this change in focus is supposed to somehow negate the fact that the prevously made claims regarding Catholic teaching are indeed false and grossly misleading.
Somehow, pointing out the personal failings of a very smal number of people within the Church makes all the false representations of her teaching OK and somehow correct.
It doesn't work that way.
I will not be getting into a drawn out discussion on those personal failings of individuals. But there is a saying: people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
I have avoided addressing such attacks before for this very reason. In an honest look at these two issues, one would have to expose the glass house of protestantism on both accounts of pedophilia and inquisitions. But someone seems to be relentless in her attacks on the Catholic Church, so let's look at the reality.
In both cases they are much worse within protestantism than ever within Catholicism
First, is the problem within the Catholic Church excuseable? No. But at least the Catholic Church is doing something to fix it. Additionally, does the problem in the Catholic Church has been dealing with, which the media has been so hyperfocused on, excuse anti-catholic attacks on Her by protestants while they ignore the much greater problem of the same in their own backyard?
Double Standard: Abuse Scandals and the Attack on the Catholic Church
David F. Pierre Jr
Amazon.com: Double Standard: Abuse Scandals and the Attack on the Catholic Church (9781453730690): David F. Pierre Jr: Books
Regarding the above book:
The book DOUBLE STANDARD: ABUSE SCANDALS AND THE ATTACK ON THE CATHOLIC CHURCH by David F. Pierrre jr. was a referance in a *Special Report* bombshell Jan. 2 of this year by the website Media Report. Att'y Donald Steier, a veteran and champion for truth states approx. 1/2 of the claims made in the clergy cases are entirely false and/or greatly exaggerated-so much so that a prosecutable claim would not be attainable. Priests were given a polygraph test but when their accusers were asked they flat out refused in EVERY case.What has happened in the Catholic Church has been so hyper publicized that it has been made to be something greatly out of proportion to what it really is. And within protestant groups, even though the problem is much more prevalent, it has received virtually no publicity at all.
One has to wonder, why is that?
How is this behavior of anti-Cathlic individulas, who ignore the very same problem in protestant churches, while hammering on the Caholic Church, acceptable?
Since the problem is far graeater within the protestant churches, where is the moral outrage? - Why isn't this situation within protestantism getting it's proportionate share of attention? Why isn't it getting addressed?
The very fact this problem is far greater within protestantism should mean we should be hearing about this problem within protestantismfirst and foremost -. But we don't hear ANYTHING about it from these same anti Catholic individuals who love to wag their fingers and tongues at the Catholic Church's troubles while being silent on the same troubles of a far greater nature in the rest of Christianity. Isn't that hyppcritical?
Those same claim to be led by the Holy Spirit and loving - does the Holy Spirit lead one to be hypocritical?
Why are they so focused on pointing out the splinter in the Catholic Church's eye, when they are not even dealing with the beam that is in the collective protestant eye? Isn't that hyppcritical?
Anti-Catholics will protest against the Catholic Church, whether the protest is legitimate or not, whether it is hypocritical or not . .
The question has to be asked, why all this unbalanced focus against the failings of a small number of individuals in the Catholic Church?
There is a reason why the Catholic Church is discrimiated against, maligned, and treated hypocritically so much.
Satan is much more focused on destroying the Catholic Church than he is any other church group. That is why the media hyerpfocuses on the Catholic Church. That is why some protestant brethern hyperfocus on the faults of Catholic leaders while ignoring the bigger problem in their own backyard.
Why would satan be so interested in destroying something that is supposedly (according to our anti-catholic brethern) in error?
He's not. He is trying to destroy the Church of God starting with the Rock Jesus said He would build His Church upon, Peter and the office of the keys, the Paapcy, as this Rock must be overcome first before the Church on top of it can be destroyed, as was described in my post above.
 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?"
 He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was to betray him.
There have and always will be Judas' in His Church ..... It is still His Church run by weak and fallen men ... But as Peter said ... Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life;
And the words of eternal life are .... Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.  I am the bread of life.
You can spin it any way you want ..... But they are the Words in Red .....
There is no historical proof that Peter headed up the RCC and that what became the RCC is the one true church.
The only historical 'proof' is how the RCC wrote it up.
I will never - and I mean never - embrace the teachings of the RCC. I don't trust human beings that much, especially those who protect pedophiles.
Trusting my eternity is pretty near and dear to me and if men can't be trusted with a child - they cannot be trusted with my eternity.
End of debate.
'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe
They do not deserve the right to lead another human being regarding their eternity any more than any other person.
They wrote the history claiming they are 'the church' and they enjoy the worship and adoration they get from their 'flock.'
Where is the connection showing that Peter (if I were to buy that he was the first leader Christ passed to) starting the RCC?
None -unless you accept what the RCC wrote and presents.
Only people who actually are blinded to trusting in humans can accept what they try to pass off as truth in that they claim are 'the' church. How insulting that is to the rest of us but you just keep on pushing it.
Well here is the only truth people need:
Christ alone is our leader and teacher and savior.
Christ alone, through His Holy Spirit, leads a heart to salvation.
Salvation is by Christ alone, by faith alone, by grace alone.
No pope, priests, or pedophiles needed.
'A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument,'" writes von Campe
The point of my responses to the attacks on the behavior of people within the Catholic Church, using the facts I present, are to demonstrate the false nature of the argumentation that uses these claims against the Catholic Church as an attempt to somehow invalidate Her - they are not intended as an attack protestantism in return - the conclusion of which is here:
Now to address the attack on the Catholic Church regarding the inquisitions.
Supposedly the most infamous is the Spanish Inquisiton.
Have you ever heard of "The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition" ???
It was documentary put on by the BBC that busted all the myths we see so popularly resurrected quite frequently by anti-Catholics.
Some interesting facts:
People fell all over themselves to have their cases transferred from the secular courts to the Inquisiotnal courts . . did you know that? If the Spainish Inquisitoin was so terrible, why would people do such a thing?
They would intentionally blaspheme or do some other act that would require that their case be heard by the inquisiton . . Why? Because they could be sure of:
Now why would people fall all over themselves to get their case heard before the Inquisition if it was so terrible?
Doesn't make sense in my book . . and this special explains why . . . The inquisiton was not at all what popularist history has portrayed it to be.
Here is some interesting information:
From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and king and therefore deserved death. From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep that had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring those sheep back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for heretics to escape death and return to the community.Lots more info here - much more than I could possibly post here - by
Thomas F. Madden is associate professor and chairman of the Department of History at Saint Louis University. He is the author of numerous works, including most recently A Concise History of the Crusades (Rowman & Littlefield, 1999) and Enrico Dandolo and the Rise of Venice (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2003)http://www.crisismagazine.com/october2003/madden.htm
So, far from being the barbaric institution myth has characterized it as, it was noble and elevated in its judicial system for the day. And far from the excessive humbers that have been claimed by myth upwards in the hundreds of thousands to millions commonly head to have been burned at the stake, etc, the numbers put to death by secular authoritie was actully quite small in the hundreds to few thousands over several hundreds of years.
In contrast to that, we look at the Protestant inquisitions, where the real attrocities took place - but we never hear the protestant inquisitions being attacked, let alone even addressed.
More hypocrisy? Evidently.
So what happened in the protestant inquisitions? The data is vast. Hundreds of thousands, if not well over a million were put to death in the space of perhaps 200 years. The protestant inquisitons were indeed barbaric.
Let's take a look at some real history - this is not for the faint of heart, it is fairly gruesome:
MARTIN LUTHERWe could go on. The Protestant Inquisition in Ireland was even more vicious than most. A simple list just of Catholic PRIESTS (not including far greater numbers of laymen) killed in a hundred year periodis very instructive. I can provide the list of at least a good hundred priests killed in a short number of years.
Without counting all of the incidents of protestant attacks on Catholics and others, we have:
100,000 peasants masequered by the German Princes per Luther's instructionsThat is 750,000 to 1,250,000 and counting over a very short period of time, around 100 years . . . . . (which doesn't count the anabaptists and others the protestant inquisitions killed),
Last edited by Theresej; 05-07-2011 at 01:55 PM.
So the question remains, why the hyper focus on myths, exagerations and lies about the Catholic Church by anti-Catholics while ignoring the much greater problem of the same issues in the collective backyard of protestantism?
Where is the outcry about the barbaric deeds of the reformers and the reformation?
Why the hypocrisy?
The use of such accusations to somehow invalidate the Catholic church is simply false argumentation.
To illustrate the false nature of such argumentation:
If such things are somehow proof that the Catholic Church is invalid, then they are even more so - doubly so, triply so, even 100 times so - proof that the Protestant Reformation, and thus protestantism and its offshoots today, is even more so invalidated.That is simply the logical conclusion of the argument using the inquisitons, etc to attack the Catholic Church to somehow invalidate the Catholic Church.
The fact is, these attacks on the Catholic Church are really nothing more than smoke and mirrors.
What I would appreciate is for our resident anti-Catholic to stop attacking the Catholic Church in this thread so we can actually discuss the topic of the thread itself.
Thank you :)